A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[137th Gebirg]

Speaking of questionable parentage, what about that bizarre scene between Jaime and his Aunt Genna before he went to talk to Blackfish at Riverrun?

Unless I missed the subtext going on, it seemed to me that she implied that Tyrion was the only true son of Tywin, not Jaime; further implying that maybe Jaime (and, by birth, Cersei as well) are not Tywin's offspring. Is her statement supposed to be more of a metaphor, in that Jaime is nothing like Tywin as a person (good or bad), or does she hold some secret about their origins? That one really confused me and there has been no mention of it since.

 

[Kegg]

Is her statement supposed to be more of a metaphor, in that Jaime is nothing like Tywin as a person (good or bad),

That's exactly how I read it. Tyrion is his father's son, having both his taste and his aptitude for political scheming, a subject that Jaime has little interest in.

Exactly because the TV series is leaving it as an open question, and given that there are all of two scenes where it comes up, it would have been perfectly possible to tell Bean what Ned's attitude, is but not precisely why it exists, without noticeably affecting the result.

That really just gets into the question about how much an actor should know about their character and how that impacts a performance. Some actors know volumes worth of information about who they're playing, a lot of which doesn't seem to have obvious payoff on the screen, others may know nothing beyond their assorted lines of dialogue, and so on.

In the case that it's a subject that Ned Stark confronts twice, to which he knows the definitive answer to and about which he may be lying (either that he's not Jon's father, or the woman he claims to be his mother is not his mother, whatever) it is pretty legitimately an important part of Ned Stark's past that it would benefit Sean Bean to know.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I am probably over thinking things...

Several times Jon has thought about how dragons would make the defense of the Wall easier. He and Sam even had a discussion about how Targeryns tried to hatch dragon eggs after the last one died, to no avail. Now that Dany has hatched her eggs, could another person do so? Does the person have to be a Targeryn or if someone has an egg and enough heat could anyone do it?

They say that old spells, etc are regaining potency. Is having the ability to hatch dragons specific to the person like warging? It is a talent that seems to touch a few.

Even if Dany reclaims the throne, she is the only Targeryn left (other than Aemon). Granted she could marry, but if she is barren as the story suggests, the land is bloodied for a one off monarch. Plus, all of her dragons are male. They will not be continuing their bloodline either.

 

[Klaus]

One thing for sure, the price of those "fossilized" dragon's eggs has probably gone up quite a bit ... but wherever Illyrio found them, there's no reason to think there aren't more of them out there waiting for the Mother of Dragons to help revive them too. If some of them are female...

 

[Captaindemotion]

Even leaving aside Sean Bean's abilities or subtleties as an actor, I'm not necessarily persuaded that any actor's performance would necessarily benefit from knowing or not knowing the truth about Jon's parentage.

Alfie Allen's 'Luke Skywalker' example works here too. As far as I know, Alec Guinness didn't know that Darth Vader was really Luke's father in ANH and he presumably delivered the line 'He was betrayed and murdered by a young Jedi named Darth Vader' believing it to be 'true.'

But if you look at his performance, he gives this little look away before answering Luke's question about how his father died. At the time, I imagine that it was meant to be Obi-Wan preparing to give nasty news to the young man. But with hindsight, knowing what we now know, it works even better as Obi-Wan's hesitation and self-reproachment at having to lie to Luke.

As and when we find out the truth about Jon, I imagine that people will not just be looking back through the books to look for clues and either confirm their original suspicions or see how they got it so wrong - they'll also re-watch the tv show and they'll find clues and hints in the performances - even if the actors didn't actually intend for them to convey anything at the time!

 

[137th Gebirg]

Spoiler: Jon

As I was "listening" to Dance with Dragons on the way into work this morning (Chapter 31), I was at a point in the book where Melisandre was pondering something she saw in her flames. She was trying to see Stannis in her fires after he had left the wall to recruit Northmen to his cause. She asked her god to show her "Azor Ahai Reborn" (whom she believes Stannis to be) and all she kept seeing was Jon, his face morphing into that of a wolf and back again. Could Jon be Azor Ahai's resurrected spirit and not Stannis or Danny, as others have believed?

 

[Ayelbourne]

Just keep on reading. There will be more clues supporting this theory.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

Spoiler: Jon

As I was "listening" to Dance with Dragons on the way into work this morning (Chapter 31), I was at a point in the book where Melisandre was pondering something she saw in her flames. She was trying to see Stannis in her fires after he had left the wall to recruit Northmen to his cause. She asked her god to show her "Azor Ahai Reborn" (whom she believes Stannis to be) and all she kept seeing was Jon, his face morphing into that of a wolf and back again. Could Jon be Azor Ahai's resurrected spirit and not Stannis or Danny, as others have believed?

Spoiler: My thoughts on Jon...

I have always surmised from the books that Melisandre feels that Stannis is necessary to her end game, but she does not believe him to be Azor Ahai. I have few things to actually base it on other than that she seems to be draining him with no remorse. I have always suspected she sees Stannis as a means to an end. I don't think she is deluding him in telling him he has a great part to play, because I believe he does. I have often thought that she just led him on in relation to the scope of his role. However, I am only at the beginning of book four and things may change my mind.

I don't know if Jon will become important because he is a Stark or if he is a Targeryn. Dany's vision in the house of the undying includes Rhaegar saying - "He is the song of ice and fire." I took it he was talking about Aegon. But, if Rhaegar misread prophecy the way I think Melisandre is doing, Jon could be ASOIAF. He is Stark (ice) and fire (Targeryn), but I base that on my belief that Jon is Lyanna's son. 1. Ned promised his sister something that haunted him. When he is in the black cells he worries about Jon most especially. 2. If the Skywalker talk has any bearing - Luke was raised by an Uncle in secret for his own protection.

However, some of the story makes me question Jon really being a Targeryn. He was burned helping save Mormont from the wights. But, maybe Targeryns are only not burned in relation to dragon birthing, but who knows...

I think Jon has a big role to play. I think he will ultimately be the man Melisandre is looking for. She said a great king would rise when thousands had died in the war. I think Jon's purpose is defense of the Wall.

Aemon told Sam that Stannis did not have Light Bringer because the sword did not emit heat. So, Stannis has a pretty play thing - not the real thing.

Some posters have mentioned that the last book was to be called a Time for Wolves. Some speculate that the title was too spoilery and needed to be changed. That could mean the Starks rising back up, or given Martin's penchant for turning all to ashes, it could mean that the only thing left are packs of wolves eating the dead.

Given what has happened in the past to the Starks, odds are Jon is a dead man. But, I also get the feeling that he will rise up as an undead man.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

Sorry to follow my own post but this is a different topic.

Cersei is convinced that Margeary is the queen that knocks her off the throne.

Some readers think it is Dany.

What if it is Sansa?

This may sound odd, but I had this thought when reading Sansa's chapters last night.

She does not seem to think of Jon as her brother.

If Jon is the one promised and is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar...Would he marry his cousin to give Starks a higher place in the realm?

It is just a thought. Perhaps an icky thought but I had it any way.

Sansa nevers thinks of Jon once when she believes the whole family dead.

I cannot call which character POV is was - Jon or Sansa, but it mentioned that as soon as Sansa understood what bastard meant - she always referred to him as her half brother - if she referred to him all.

 

[backstept]

if TMZ is to be believed, Kit Harrington and Rose Leslie are apparently dating

 

[Klaus]

lucky sod....

 

[137th Gebirg]

if TMZ is to be believed, Kit Harrington and Rose Leslie are apparently dating

Interesting. That certainly made for quite believable interactions with them last season and good chemistry. Did this start before, during or after filming, I wonder?

 

[backstept]

I have no idea . . . the article I read was on Buzzfeed and it's basically some photos from a restaurant where they appear to be quite friendly with each other. Speculation mostly.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

Okay - Cersei is a trainwreck.

She has now allowed the Faith to create basically their own order of knights and men-at-arms. That is is horrible idea! Now there are going to be bands of armed men that have no loyality to the crown.

She may have saved a few bucks, but I can see this coming back to bite her in the rear. She is bringing down her own house brick by brick.

 

[Ayelbourne]

She is bringing down her own house brick by brick.

That's the beauty of her story in book four.

 

[Anwar]

And when the truth about her children comes out (and it more or less is out and could be investigated by the Faith) there will be bands of Knights with no loyalty to the Crown out to kill "abominations"! She really didn't think it out...

 

[Shurik]

She is bringing down her own house brick by brick.

That's the beauty of her story in book four.

It's my favorite part of AFFC.

Spoiler: later parts of AFFC

I loved her extremely convoluted plan to get rid of all her "enemies", including Maragery, and how it unsurprisingly blew up in her face and got her imprisoned by the same religious nuts she gave power to.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Cersei's problem is that she thinks she's a genius because she managed to outwit the one man in the kingdom who was dumber than she is...

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I wish he'd written more chapters in Cersei's voice. Those were brilliant.

 

[Dream]

Cersei's problem is that she thinks she's a genius because she managed to outwit the one man in the kingdom who was dumber than she is...

Poor Ned...