A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[Anwar]

He can't marry Sansa to Harry without revealing who she really is, and she's still married to Tyrion so that marriage must first be annulled. This was why Littlefinger helped the Tyrells frame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, to have him executed and free Sansa for future use as a bride. Unfortunately for him, Jaime and Varys screwed that up.

And I don't see why Sansa trusts him or would be willing to go along with his schemes. She should know that Littlefinger was the one who betrayed Ned in the first place. It won't surprise me if she ends up just sticking a dagger in him when she realizes he's going to kill Sweetrobin (her cousin) to advance Harry.

He undoubtedly knows that Cersei's children are illegitimate, but he keeps that information to himself. Perhaps he wants to have something to hold over Joffrey later. When Jon Arryn finds out, Littlefinger persuades Lysa to kill him. When Ned Stark finds out, Littlefinger betrays him and lets him die. But then Littlefinger himself has Joffrey assassinated later.

Stannis was the first one to figure out that the kids were illegitimate, and he told Jon Arryn so they began investigating Robert's bastards to realize their suspicions. Varys and Littlefinger knew something was up and spied on them, figuring out the secret for themselves.

LF had Arryn killed for two reasons: 1) So he could use it and Lyssa to frame the Lannisters, then alert whoever the next Hand would be and hopefully start up a War. He'd then weigh his options and choose whoever he thought was the likely winner and demand a reward (hopefully a promotion to High Noble) so he could marry Lyssa and become Regent of the Vale. Everything else was just him adapting to random things as best he could and trying to benefit from them. He's just been really lucky more than anything else.

2) He had to keep anyone from de-legitimizing Joffrey in a controlled peaceful way, because that would make Stannis the next in line and Stannis would likely outlaw all the stuff LF makes his money from. That is, if Stannis didn't outright just kick him off the Council.

 

[Kegg]

Once Robert rebelled, he upset that balance. Suddenly the great houses were not equal, the Baratheons became the royal family by conquest. Fourteen years was not enough time to establish their rule as a precedent. Why should Joffrey (even if he was Robert's son) rule? Why not Stannis or Renly? Why not Robb Stark or Balon Greyjoy? Once the Targaryans are out of the picture it becomes a free-for-all.

Having a Baratheon for King of the Seven Kingdoms is not really the same as Robb Stark or Balon Greyjoy claiming this title, though. Robert's claim to the throne was that he himself was related to House Targaryen - via his grandmother, if memory serves. It wasn't as strong a claim to the Iron Throne as any of the surviving Targaryen relatives, but it was a claim, which is significantly more then either Jon Arryn or Ned Stark ever had.

This is why Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy both go for individual kingship titles, North (plus Trident) and Iron Islands, respectively, because those are ones they can lay claim to from family lineage... while Euron Greyjoy wants a match with Daenerys Targaryen because basically anyone who married her would have an automatic claim on the Iron Throne.

 

[CaptainCanada]

And I don't see why Sansa trusts him or would be willing to go along with his schemes.

She doesn't. That's quite clear. She just has no other options but to go along with him.

 

[Venardhi]

She is learning from him better than he realizes. Littlefinger has one big flaw, one weakness, and he isn't going to see her coming up that blind spot when she eventually makes her move.

 

[superdeluxe]

She is learning from him better than he realizes. Littlefinger has one big flaw, one weakness, and he isn't going to see her coming up that blind spot when she eventually makes her move.

I can easily see Sansa being a Lady over one of the kingdoms, she is going to be so shrewed and clever

 

[Hyperspace05]

HBO has announced that after the first episode of season 2 airs, they will update the HBO Game of Thrones viewers guide (at http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/ ) with the first official map of the entire continent of Essos.

They also released the final poster in the "for fans" series:

"I will take what is mine!"

http://http://winteriscoming.net/2012/03/hbo-releases-final-tease-poster-for-season-two

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

^^^
Very cool!

 

[DarthPipes]

He can't marry Sansa to Harry without revealing who she really is, and she's still married to Tyrion so that marriage must first be annulled. This was why Littlefinger helped the Tyrells frame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, to have him executed and free Sansa for future use as a bride. Unfortunately for him, Jaime and Varys screwed that up.

And I don't see why Sansa trusts him or would be willing to go along with his schemes. She should know that Littlefinger was the one who betrayed Ned in the first place. It won't surprise me if she ends up just sticking a dagger in him when she realizes he's going to kill Sweetrobin (her cousin) to advance Harry.

He undoubtedly knows that Cersei's children are illegitimate, but he keeps that information to himself. Perhaps he wants to have something to hold over Joffrey later. When Jon Arryn finds out, Littlefinger persuades Lysa to kill him. When Ned Stark finds out, Littlefinger betrays him and lets him die. But then Littlefinger himself has Joffrey assassinated later.

Stannis was the first one to figure out that the kids were illegitimate, and he told Jon Arryn so they began investigating Robert's bastards to realize their suspicions. Varys and Littlefinger knew something was up and spied on them, figuring out the secret for themselves.

LF had Arryn killed for two reasons: 1) So he could use it and Lyssa to frame the Lannisters, then alert whoever the next Hand would be and hopefully start up a War. He'd then weigh his options and choose whoever he thought was the likely winner and demand a reward (hopefully a promotion to High Noble) so he could marry Lyssa and become Regent of the Vale. Everything else was just him adapting to random things as best he could and trying to benefit from them. He's just been really lucky more than anything else.

2) He had to keep anyone from de-legitimizing Joffrey in a controlled peaceful way, because that would make Stannis the next in line and Stannis would likely outlaw all the stuff LF makes his money from. That is, if Stannis didn't outright just kick him off the Council.

I've noticed that outside of the people of King's Landing, nobody seems to know that Littlefinger betrayed Ned. Cat certainly didn't know, let alone the North.

On your last point, Littlefinger pretty much told Ned that Stannis would excuse him from the Small Council so he had a good reason for not helping Ned out. Ned never seemed to consider this and that bit him in the ass.

 

[InklingStar]

Ned and Stannis both have the same fatal flaw: They do what is right no matter the cost.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Ned and Stannis both have the same fatal flaw: They do what is right no matter the cost.

I don't know about that. We can infer from the books - and the TV show will likely make plain - that Stannis is shagging Mel. Plus Mel uses their shagging to produce black magic that assassinates Renly. It's not quite clear to what extent Stannis is aware of that plot, but I think he was probably in on it. Stannis is a very rigid man and has a certain code, but he's certainly willing to do unsavory things to further his campaign for the throne.

 

[Anwar]

That's the thing about Stannis. He USED to be a guy who was "I must follow the law no matter the cost" but has become the guy who keep compromising his principles for his ambitions.

Normally, a guy willing to compromise personal beliefs for results wouldn't be such a bad thing but for Stannis it's pretty awful since he doesn't have any real restraints anymore.

It's a nice subtly for a series that's supposedly dark and cynical: The guys who are amoral (Tywin) and violate their own principles (Stannis) may seem to have the upper hand but eventually it blows up in their faces (Tywin suffering patricide, Stannis' usage of black magic ended up giving the Lannisters a huge advantage).

The honorable people like Ned may have gotten killed off early on, but they had such an impact on people in their lifetimes DUE to their inherent goodness and honor that their legacies will live on much longer. Ned has been mentioned with fondness in every single volume by a variety of people, whereas most everyone forgot about Robert after he died and I can't imagine anyone will think fondly of Tywin or be inspired by his memory.

 

[CaptainCanada]

I'm not sure if it's "ambitions" with Stannis, because he's openly stated that he doesn't want to be king; he just is king (which is true, under the Baratheon succession), and his world that means he has to do it. He's strayed into some ethical gray areas in the process and done things he might not have done otherwise (down to, as he said to Davos, pardoning all those lords who joined him after Renly's death even though they were weasels he was strongly inclined to punish otherwise).

 

[InklingStar]

Ned forsook his honor, and lied to protect his children, right before he died. Had he lived, would he have done it again? Stannis is clearly uncomfortable with the whole red god thing and the shadowbabies. But he does what he thinks he must for the greater good, the rightness of his claim.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Stannis' behavior is easily explained by being a hypocrite - like most lords and kings, he thinks oaths apply the people under him but not himself.

He was happy to rise up against the Targaryens, but will destroy anyone who challenges his claim.

 

[Anwar]

Actually, Stannis struggled the most with whether to support Robert or Aerys in the Rebellion. That's one of the sore points between Robert and Stannis, because Robert was mad his brother didn't immediately jump to his aid.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Yes, he talks about how he agonized over that and ultimately chose Robert. Which no doubt adds to his annoyance at how poorly Robert rewarded him for all his loyal service.

 

[Anwar]

Thing is, all the "Loyal Service" stuff we hear about comes from Stannis or his most loyal men (Cressen, mainly). I'm starting to think that he may not have been all that great to Robert in the first place, I mean for people who blame Robert for Stannis' personality it's stated in the prologue to ACOK that he was a humorless stiff person even as a boy.

I have to wonder just why Robert had such a rough relationship with Stannis, given how similar he and Ned are in personality.

 

[Venardhi]

He was raised with Ned. Stannis and Robert never really built those familial bonds.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Stannis is stiff and humourless by nature, from what we've seen, but nobody has ever disputed that he served Robert with great distinction in the wars (to, again, the point of breaking his own dearly-held belief in the law to join his rebellion) - he held Storm's End to the point of starvation (without which the rebellion would have been crushed due to force concentration), and annihilated the Iron Fleet, which essentially ended the first Greyjoy uprising. And then he and Jon Arryn were pretty much the only people on Robert's council actually trying to keep the realm on good footing, whilst Robert ignored the government, spent it into debt, and tolerated the corruption of other ministers. Stannis' complaints against Robert seem fairly well-founded, in comparison (even Cersei confirmed that giving Stannis Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End was intended by Robert as an insult).

 

[Anwar]

We can't take anything Cersei says as truth though, she'd see slights where there were none.

Robert probably was trying to be nice to Stannis by giving him the Home of the Royal Heir, but he should've made him Lord Paramount of the Stormlands at the same time.

I think it's because neither Robert nor Stannis are able to mentally develop beyond teenage years, Robert probably gave Storm's End to Renly because Renly was a child and Robert could keep the Stormlands through Renly. He childishly wanted to keep his birthright and his new Throne, but still felt Stannis deserved something. So he was trying to be nice but cocked it up.

Even that mess with Stannis' marriage bed could be explained: Robert saw for himself how disgusted Stannis was with his wife, he felt lousy for forcing him to marry someone like that (after all, he had a beautiful unpleasant person forced on him and Stannis doesn't even get the luxury of Selyse being pretty), got drunk and figured "Hell, Stannis won't enjoy himself in that bed anyways so why not?"

He was raised with Ned. Stannis and Robert never really built those familial bonds

Yeah, but they're similar enough you'd think he'd notice THAT.