A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I could be wrong since I know you not at all, but it's hard for me to imagine myself or anybody else wanting to watch a character they know and care about being grief-striken week after week.

Can I be the exception which proves the rule?

I can understand why some people wouldn't be able to stomach watching a main character in emotional pain week after week, but it is something I would find intellectually stimulating if done right. The Voyager writers certainly weren't capable of pulling off the level of grief that would have been involved in the death of a child, but there are some shows where I would trust the writers enough to believe they could pull it off.

It's not like we would need to focus on it every week, I think that most of us have gone through gut-wrenchingly painful moments in our lives, and after the initial pain is dealt with we grieve in the privacy of our own homes while we get on with our professional lives. If Chakotay's non-existent child were to die then it wouldn't take over the show; there would only be a handful of episodes dealing with it, a few scenes about the subject every season, and just a general change in Chakotay's tone. It's not like as if he was a well-defined character to begin with.

And as teya said, BSG did a story of this nature in the second season when Sharon and Helo thought that their daughter had died, and the show handled it fairly well. Admittedly jumping the show over a year into the future only a few episodes later helped, but the event was still an open wound even after the narrative jump.

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ I still think you are underestimating what it would take to do it right or even half right, but that's OK. It's been a very interesting discussion, and that's the most important thing.

I still just can't see it, but...Hey! Come to think of it, I don't have to! Yaaaaaaay!

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ I still think you are underestimating what it would take to do it right or even half right, but that's OK. It's been a very interesting discussion, and that's the most important thing.

I still just can't see it, but...Hey! Come to think of it, I don't have to! Yaaaaaaay!

True! It's pain we don't have to suffer, this time out.

Except... let's just remember the pain that child will endure, growing up as it turned out. After all, he has no mother... he's living among the Kazon... and Culluh is his dad.

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

::sniff::sniff::

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And as teya said, BSG did a story of this nature in the second season when Sharon and Helo thought that their daughter had died, and the show handled it fairly well. Admittedly jumping the show over a year into the future only a few episodes later helped, but the event was still an open wound even after the narrative jump.

Exactly.

I understand that not everyone wants dark storylines like that. I've gotten reamed in the past for suggesting that they should have used Kes's short lifespan to show a character age and die over the course of one 7 year series.

 

[MoJo]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I loved VOYAGER the first time around, (it is, by far, the best and my favorite Trek) and I continue to love it to this day. My Trek rankings would be:

VOY>TNG>TOS>ENT>DS9

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

VOY>TNG>TOS>ENT>DS9

Dear oh dear oh dear.
Pray for Mojo.

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I understand that not everyone wants dark storylines like that. I've gotten reamed in the past for suggesting that they should have used Kes's short lifespan to show a character age and die over the course of one 7 year series.

I would actually find this OK. Living out your natural lifespan (short, but natural) and then coming to the end...I'm fine with that - cycle of life and all that. It would be sad, but not gut-wrenchingly tragic. At least not for me. But a baby or a little kid? I guess that's too much reality - too much something - for me.

And as several people have pointed out, they wouldn't have done it right anyway.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Scorpion, Part 2 (***½)

The episode was better than I remembered it, but it certainly wasn't as good as the first part. I actually think that Seven detracted from the episode, I think that focusing on one Borg rather than the entire collective was a bad idea, it is the same problem that the Borg Queen represents.

The core of this episode is Chakotay disobeying Janeway's orders, this is definitely his finest hour. Janeway can't seem to see the wood for the trees, she seems to be so proud of her idea of allying with the Borg that she cannot accept that it is a bad idea, proven by Seven attempting to take control of the ship once 8472 is defeated. It is great to see Chuckles show some initiative for once.

8472 was dealt with far too quickly, Voyager fires some torpedoes and suddenly their entire fleet goes scuttling back to fluidic space. This may shock you, but I would have preferred an arc which continued this story over several episodes, as it is the resolution to the conflict seems way too quick and Voyager almost appears to be out of Borg space by episode's end.

This second part is the reason why I don't consider Scorpion to be on the same level as BOBW. In that episode Michael Piller wrote himself into a corner thinking some other sucker would sort it out, and when he ended up being that sucker he managed to write his way out and delivered a second part almost as awesome as the first. With Scorpion Braga and Menosky wrote themselves into an epic confrontation with multiple avenues to explore, and they took a route that wasn't as satisfying as I would have liked.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I understand that not everyone wants dark storylines like that. I've gotten reamed in the past for suggesting that they should have used Kes's short lifespan to show a character age and die over the course of one 7 year series.

I would actually find this OK. Living out your natural lifespan (short, but natural) and then coming to the end...I'm fine with that - cycle of life and all that. It would be sad, but not gut-wrenchingly tragic. At least not for me. But a baby or a little kid? I guess that's too much reality - too much something - for me.

Still, Kes's natural lifespan wouldn't be natural to the rest of the crew--I think they showed that accurately in "Before & After" where they're trying desperately to find something to give her a few more months.

Having gotten involved with someone who had a transplant before we met, I can tell you that it doesn't matter if you expect your loved one's life to be short. You still go through all the stages of grief when the decline comes and when that life ends.

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Of course. I have lost people I love, you know, though not a spouse. It's all hard. I don't really want to try to get into weighing which things are more tragic than others, and some of it depends on the person anyway...I'm just saying that based on what I've read and seen for myself, there is something uniquely horrifying and unnatural (to the parent, I mean) about the death of a child. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

8472 was dealt with far too quickly, Voyager fires some torpedoes and suddenly their entire fleet goes scuttling back to fluidic space. This may shock you, but I would have preferred an arc which continued this story over several episodes, as it is the resolution to the conflict seems way too quick and Voyager almost appears to be out of Borg space by episode's end.

You're so obsessed with arcs!
They found a weapon to kill 8472, 8472 freaked out and went home the end, what more is there to do?
I agree that Seven detracted from the episode though.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Of course. I have lost people I love, you know, though not a spouse. It's all hard. I don't really want to try to get into weighing which things are more tragic than others, and some of it depends on the person anyway...I'm just saying that based on what I've read and seen for myself, there is something uniquely horrifying and unnatural (to the parent, I mean) about the death of a child. That's all I'm saying.

Just because it's uniquely horrifying doesn't mean it should be off-limits for exploration in a story. IMO that gives it even more reason to explore it...

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

You're so obsessed with arcs!
They found a weapon to kill 8472, 8472 freaked out and went home the end, what more is there to do?
I agree that Seven detracted from the episode though.

I can't speak for GodBen, but I agree with the idea of extending the 8472 stuff a bit - here is this nearly-unstoppable force, blocking their way. Perhaps this would be a moment where the crew would step back and say 'Wait a minute. Starfleet AS A WHOLE has trouble with individual Borg ships and 8472's walking all over the entire species. Maybe instead of making a deal with the devil, we should take a step back and think up new plans.'

Likewise, I would expect a show with Voyager's premise to have heavy arcs for the characters - two groups of people with idealogical differences learning to work together is a story that really should NOT be solved in the space of one episode. And if I go much further into this, I'll be repeating what I've said before over the span of this thread about Voyager, so I'm going to cut myself off here - I've said it before, I don't need to say it again and again and again.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Japanese thought those darn yankees had hundreds of Nukes when they sued for their unconditional surrender... I mean, the implied threat at the time was that they would lose one city a day until they get in line on their knees.

8472 had only had indirect casualties, when the Borg were in action, doing what they do best, they probably didn't stand a chance, which is why the Borg as Seven stated had lost (?it's been a while) 100s of worlds, 1000s of cubes and Millions of drones... but still they carried on valiantly despite the complete futile hopelessness of their struggle.

8472 ran at the first sign of actual feasible resistance which even wasn't even a strike against a single one of their soldiers, but merely/barely an example declaring intent that there was a potential for 8472 casualties.

Pussies.

The nature of war is to expect a tolerable amount of losses if your leaders are sane and an intolerable amount of losses if your leaders are insane.

Imagine some US marines walk into an Afghanistani Brothel, they start pushing the girls around, demanding free drinks and enlist that all and sundry need to put some coin towards protection... Exactly how many Marines would have to be killed by prostitutes before the logical out come of such a situation is reached?

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I loved VOYAGER the first time around, (it is, by far, the best and my favorite Trek) and I continue to love it to this day. My Trek rankings would be:

VOY>TNG>TOS>ENT>DS9

Awesome!

 

[Cyke101]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

8472 was dealt with far too quickly, Voyager fires some torpedoes and suddenly their entire fleet goes scuttling back to fluidic space. This may shock you, but I would have preferred an arc which continued this story over several episodes, as it is the resolution to the conflict seems way too quick and Voyager almost appears to be out of Borg space by episode's end.

You're so obsessed with arcs!
They found a weapon to kill 8472, 8472 freaked out and went home the end, what more is there to do?

Don't you think it's a tad disproportionate for Species 8472 to blow up thousands of Borg vessels and countless worlds, yet when they lose a dozen ships they retreat?

Heck, if the Dominion War or the Xindi Arch were fought that way, they would be a very boring wars.

Frankly, I would've loved a whole episode where Voyager tried to find a way around this supermassive war, only to fail in the end, which is what convinces them to join a side in the first place. And the episode with the Federation copy should have been much scheduled much closer to Scorpion, too.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Japanese thought those darn yankees had hundreds of Nukes when they sued for their unconditional surrender... I mean, the implied threat at the time was that they would lose one city a day until they get in line on their knees.

8472 had only had indirect casualties, when the Borg were in action, doing what they do best, they probably didn't stand a chance, which is why the Borg as Seven stated had lost (?it's been a while) 100s of worlds, 1000s of cubes and Millions of drones... but still they carried on valiantly despite the complete futile hopelessness of their struggle.

8472 ran at the first sign of actual feasible resistance which even wasn't even a strike against a single one of their soldiers, but merely/barely an example declaring intent that there was a potential for 8472 casualties.

Pussies.

The nature of war is to expect a tolerable amount of losses if your leaders are sane and an intolerable amount of losses if your leaders are insane.

Imagine some US marines walk into an Afghanistani Brothel, they start pushing the girls around, demanding free drinks and enlist that all and sundry need to put some coin towards protection... Exactly how many Marines would have to be killed by prostitutes before the logical out come of such a situation is reached?

I seriously can't understand what you're getting at with half your posts, can you make things a little clearer please? :S

@DGCatAniSiri
I am fully aware of Voyager's faults and I love DS9 however I feel people go overboard with their love for arcs.
I find TV shows can be a lot more enjoyable when there are a lot of single, stand alone episodes and there isn't some big dramatic, emotionally draining thread running thru 12 episodes at a time.
I'm all for continuity and even character development, that doesn't mean I think we should have 5 episodes that deal with the same plot line, that would just take variety away from us which I believe a tv show like this needs.

 

[Cyke101]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Japanese thought those darn yankees had hundreds of Nukes when they sued for their unconditional surrender... I mean, the implied threat at the time was that they would lose one city a day until they get in line on their knees.

8472 had only had indirect casualties, when the Borg were in action, doing what they do best, they probably didn't stand a chance, which is why the Borg as Seven stated had lost (?it's been a while) 100s of worlds, 1000s of cubes and Millions of drones... but still they carried on valiantly despite the complete futile hopelessness of their struggle.

8472 ran at the first sign of actual feasible resistance which even wasn't even a strike against a single one of their soldiers, but merely/barely an example declaring intent that there was a potential for 8472 casualties.

Pussies.

The nature of war is to expect a tolerable amount of losses if your leaders are sane and an intolerable amount of losses if your leaders are insane.

Imagine some US marines walk into an Afghanistani Brothel, they start pushing the girls around, demanding free drinks and enlist that all and sundry need to put some coin towards protection... Exactly how many Marines would have to be killed by prostitutes before the logical out come of such a situation is reached?

I seriously can't understand what you're getting at with half your posts, can you make things a little clearer please? :S
.

He's saying the Borg/8472 conflict was pretty unrealistic and highly uneven for a war.

I suspect even by Trek standards. Even in TOS the Klingons were something of a background threat, and every time they popped up (which was sporadically), you were reminded of that threat. The Federation/Klingon hostilities didn't require an arc, but there was always that reminder.

As for arcs themselves, I'm reminded of even the Office. They just wrapped up a six-episode arc that was brilliantly played. It felt epic even though the environment is so mundane and every day. The kicker there was that the writers wrote something that happens to every day people and made their characters apply to it. Not necessarily life or death struggles, but at least struggles that they didn't normally face. That's a good arc, I think.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

You're so obsessed with arcs!
They found a weapon to kill 8472, 8472 freaked out and went home the end, what more is there to do?

As the great Josiah Bartlet once said, "In my house, anyone who uses one word when they could have used ten just isn't trying hard."

In other words; why tell a story in one episode when you can tell it more believably in ten?