A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Well said.
I can see your point - but I think I like the line even despite the campyness of it.
Edit: I'm struck suddenly by a similarity between this episode and TFF. Good 'deity' turns out to be bad 'deity' with vaguely spiritual implications.
Not sure if that's good or not.
Well said.
To be honest, it makes me cringe.Oh and of course Janeway's unforgettable 'Go back to helllll!'
It sounds like something from a bad action movie, I can never see a real person saying it.
I can see your point - but I think I like the line even despite the campyness of it.
Edit: I'm struck suddenly by a similarity between this episode and TFF. Good 'deity' turns out to be bad 'deity' with vaguely spiritual implications.
Not sure if that's good or not.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I'm not admitting to anything without my very own membership card!
Nobody but me likes the J/C scenes in Coda?
I'm not admitting to anything without my very own membership card!
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
And if I was going to do some sort of near death experience episode it would be surreal in little ways, like a dream can be, and there wouldn't be a neat and simple explanation for it at the end. I'd trust the audience to come to their own conclusions.
No it couldn't, because Janeway only exists on this show so there couldn't possibly be an exploration of Janeway's character on any other show. Character is what matters more than anything else, plot is a secondary concern.
Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing.
I'd like to think that my dialogue would be better than that.
And if I was going to do some sort of near death experience episode it would be surreal in little ways, like a dream can be, and there wouldn't be a neat and simple explanation for it at the end. I'd trust the audience to come to their own conclusions.
Okie-doke, but I'd rather have some drama.
TFF has one redeeming factor; DeForest Kelly. Unfortunately this episode doesn't have anything which even comes close to that scene between McCoy and his father.Edit: I'm struck suddenly by a similarity between this episode and TFF. Good 'deity' turns out to be bad 'deity' with vaguely spiritual implications.
Not sure if that's good or not.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Jaespol, you took the words right out of my mouth.
Ben's always complaining when an ep doesn't milk the Delta Quad setting for all it's worth. An NDE can happen on TNG. But in Coda, the idea was posited at the end of the ep that the inhabiting alien was "unique to the Delta Quadrant". Well . . . there ya go.
I would have quit my job on Voyager and try to move over to DS9.
Seriously, I would have cut out all the worthless garbage and told a story about Janeway having a near-death experience. Near-death experiences are real and possibly caused by blood loss to the brain so I don't see why they needed the stupid evil alien angle or all the other idiotic crap weighing the episode down. Do something based around the character which is life affirming and significant.
A near-death experience episode? That could be done on any old random show! This is a science fiction show, there should be some science-fiction involved.
So you would have had Janeway fall over and hit her head, nearly die and then mope about for the rest of the episode going "Oh no, I nearly died!".
I'd rather have some fun time loops, death scenes and the concept of a soul eating alien than that pedestrian crap.
Jaespol, you took the words right out of my mouth.
Ben's always complaining when an ep doesn't milk the Delta Quad setting for all it's worth. An NDE can happen on TNG. But in Coda, the idea was posited at the end of the ep that the inhabiting alien was "unique to the Delta Quadrant". Well . . . there ya go.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
GodBen is correct, theoretically this could have been a very compelling and thought-provoking story about Janeway's near-death experience. It would have been unique, because Janeway's character is unique (well, at least it ought to be in a well-written series). I like GodBen's idea of portraying Janeway's experience as surreal and dreamlike. Really, that alone would be a science-fiction element in itself.
Oh come on, you can't be serious. Just because they're saying the alien is unique to the Delta Quadrant doesn't make it so. This story could have been told on every other Trek series.
GodBen is correct, theoretically this could have been a very compelling and thought-provoking story about Janeway's near-death experience. It would have been unique, because Janeway's character is unique (well, at least it ought to be in a well-written series). I like GodBen's idea of portraying Janeway's experience as surreal and dreamlike. Really, that alone would be a science-fiction element in itself.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
You are forgetting the true premise, it's not a "near death experience" it's an attack by an alien desguised as a near death experience. Everything in it, the time loop and all are an illusion. The whole thing is a mind rape attack. I do not buy GodBen's points off, it's Trek period. Doesn't matter if it could have been done in any of the other series, they are all Trek and there are going to be similarities.
The best example I can give you is ask "could the Dominion war been shown as Next Gen episodes?" Of course it could have. You could have easily just extended NG and never had DS9 at all.
This is a great example though how different viewers get things that other viewers didn't. There are all kinds of fans that consider Coda one of the very best Voyager episodes. GodBen isn't right (he isn't wrong in that he didn't like it), he's just wrong when he judges the episode as worthless, too many people find value in it.
Brit
You are forgetting the true premise, it's not a "near death experience" it's an attack by an alien desguised as a near death experience. Everything in it, the time loop and all are an illusion. The whole thing is a mind rape attack. I do not buy GodBen's points off, it's Trek period. Doesn't matter if it could have been done in any of the other series, they are all Trek and there are going to be similarities.
The best example I can give you is ask "could the Dominion war been shown as Next Gen episodes?" Of course it could have. You could have easily just extended NG and never had DS9 at all.
This is a great example though how different viewers get things that other viewers didn't. There are all kinds of fans that consider Coda one of the very best Voyager episodes. GodBen isn't right (he isn't wrong in that he didn't like it), he's just wrong when he judges the episode as worthless, too many people find value in it.
Brit
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Yes, but the point is that GodBen – and myself, I might add – think that it would have been a better episode if it was a genuine near-death experience. Really, what story did this episode (as it is) tried to tell? To me the answer is: Nothing. I think it's just many arbitrary science-fiction elements slapped together; without any real purpose. So, apart from superficial things like production values or good performances, what exactly are people getting out of this episode?
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
For me it was an affirmation of the feelings Janeway had for Chakotay. In "Resoultions" we know he had feelings for her. In Coda we see her illusion that he would grieve if she died, she appearently cared that he would miss her. "Coda" was an attempt to incorporate some of the back story from "Mosiac" into Voyager canon.
I find it more interesting in that she could finally see through the alien's disguise. I also find it interesting that the alien chose her father as the image to project. It's as if he expected her to "obey" a parent figure, when she had been taught to question. Which saved her in the end.
Brit
For me it was an affirmation of the feelings Janeway had for Chakotay. In "Resoultions" we know he had feelings for her. In Coda we see her illusion that he would grieve if she died, she appearently cared that he would miss her. "Coda" was an attempt to incorporate some of the back story from "Mosiac" into Voyager canon.
I find it more interesting in that she could finally see through the alien's disguise. I also find it interesting that the alien chose her father as the image to project. It's as if he expected her to "obey" a parent figure, when she had been taught to question. Which saved her in the end.
Brit
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Secondly, NCC-1701 is correct when saying that your argument is very weak. Change the word Delta to Alpha and this episode could have been done on any of the other Trek series.
Finally, this episode was already done on TNG, it is a mixture of some of TNG's finest episodes re-served to the audience in the hope that nobody would notice.
Firstly, I'm going to clear something up here, I did not deduct points from Coda for being TNG-lite, the episode earned no points for me to deduct. This wasn't an episode that earned half a star which was then taken away from it, this was an episode which earned a score of zero.
Secondly, NCC-1701 is correct when saying that your argument is very weak. Change the word Delta to Alpha and this episode could have been done on any of the other Trek series.
Finally, this episode was already done on TNG, it is a mixture of some of TNG's finest episodes re-served to the audience in the hope that nobody would notice.
Once again, NCC-1701 hit the nail on the head, it doesn't matter what this episode is supposed to be because while writing it they came up with a better idea for an episode and decided to continue with the original idea instead. If I'm in a restaurant and I'm served chicken covered in turd sauce then I'm going to send it back and ask for the chicken on its own.
TNG could have done a Dominion War story, but it would have been different from the war we saw on DS9. I could never see Picard accepting himself as Emissary and asking the Prophets to destroy a Dominion fleet, and I certainly couldn't see Picard doing what Sisko did in In the Pale Moonlight. I can't see Riker organising a resistance movement against the Cardassian occupation, I can't see Crusher getting involved with Section 31, I can't see Wesley trying to stop Red Squad going on a suicide mission. And I can't see anybody else as Garak.
There was no worth in it for me, it was a string of sci-fi machinations with little character work. You find worth in it, I understand that, but one man's meat is another man's poison. I liked Fair Trade even though a bunch of people posted saying that it was worthless and uninteresting, so I am well aware that people hold differing opinions about things.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Both elements – Janeway admitting feelings for Chakotay when she (appearently) sees him grieve and the appearance of her father after she dies – could very well be implemented in a version of the episode that doesn't use the arbitrary déjà vu device and the malicious alien element. I actually liked those aspects as well, because they told us something about Janeway. But the nonsensical plot elements they used to get there are absolutely unnecessary and distracting. The episode would have been better without them. In my opinion that is.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Oh come on GodBen.
I admit Coda could have been better, it is not my fav episode either and I am J/Cer for crying out loud, but it's at least worth of **½. There are faaaar worse episodes you have given at least *.
But to each to its own, I guess. Tee hee.
Oh come on GodBen.
I admit Coda could have been better, it is not my fav episode either and I am J/Cer for crying out loud, but it's at least worth of **½. There are faaaar worse episodes you have given at least *.
But to each to its own, I guess. Tee hee.
I'm not admitting to anything without my very own membership card!
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I do! In a way.
I'm not an ardent J/C:er but I do see some chemistry between them.
As for "Coda", it was OK up to the last 5 minutes.
Nobody but me likes the J/C scenes in Coda?
I do!
In a way.I'm not an ardent J/C:er but I do see some chemistry between them.
As for "Coda", it was OK up to the last 5 minutes.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Which came first, Mosaic or Coda? I know they're about the same sort of era.
To me the story in Mosaic is another reason why Coda is dissatisfying - either that or Mosaic as technically non Canon is incorrect. In Mosaic the incident of Janeway's father and fiance drowning is portrayed as the sole key event in shaping who she is, a massively traumatic experience. Especially as she tried to save them and couldn't.
In coda the fiance isn't mentioned at all, just the father going on about how he drowned. If the alien was reading her memories is this not a bit odd? If he's pretending to be her father would he not talk about the fiance who according to Mosaic he respected? Also, correct me if I'm wrong its been a while since I saw Coda but I don't think it even mentions Janeway being there when her father drowned? Coda mentions her sister dragging her out of bed and forcing her to get on with her life as we see in Mosaic - it makes no sense not to mention the fact she lost two people not just one.
Or did I just drop off the last time I watched Coda and miss references to Justin? Quite possible I've always felt a bit bamboozled and fed up after watching the time loop
Which came first, Mosaic or Coda? I know they're about the same sort of era.
To me the story in Mosaic is another reason why Coda is dissatisfying - either that or Mosaic as technically non Canon is incorrect. In Mosaic the incident of Janeway's father and fiance drowning is portrayed as the sole key event in shaping who she is, a massively traumatic experience. Especially as she tried to save them and couldn't.
In coda the fiance isn't mentioned at all, just the father going on about how he drowned. If the alien was reading her memories is this not a bit odd? If he's pretending to be her father would he not talk about the fiance who according to Mosaic he respected? Also, correct me if I'm wrong its been a while since I saw Coda but I don't think it even mentions Janeway being there when her father drowned? Coda mentions her sister dragging her out of bed and forcing her to get on with her life as we see in Mosaic - it makes no sense not to mention the fact she lost two people not just one.
Or did I just drop off the last time I watched Coda and miss references to Justin? Quite possible I've always felt a bit bamboozled and fed up after watching the time loop
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I had hoped I wouldn't have to do this, but since my non-review of Coda has caused some consternation I will now rip it apart and show everybody exactly why this episode failed to earn any points. I'll start with the first scene.
I don't know if this was intended by the script or if it was a directorial choice or if it was just something the actors did, but this was over-played and unfunny. The last thing I want to think about is Neelix and his junk.
Then we go to a scene where Janeway and Chakotay are in a shuttle together. Why? That's not explained until we've seen them be killed a half dozen times, but apparently they were going to a planet to collect samples. The captain and the first officer? Collecting samples? In a shuttle together?
You have frakking science officers for that sort of bullshit!
You don't send your captain and first officer away in a shuttle when you have no way of replacing them. Have these morons learned nothing from what happened in Resolutions?!! 
Then the shuttle crashes, which is something that is so overdone on this show that I am completely desensitised to it.
Now we enter the near-death experience part of this episode, and the first thing that happens is that the Vidiians show up and act as typical villains. I know this isn't real, but this just furthers the destruction of this initially fantastic species.
Janeway dies, they're back in the shuttle and you realise that they are revising the plot of Cause and Effect. The loop repeats again and eventually they end up on Voyager where Shmullus diagnoses Janeway with the phage. This is the first time that the episode comes across a plot more interesting than the one they eventually go with but for some reason they decide not to go down that route.
Then we get one of the most hideous scenes in the episode, Shmullus "euthanising" Janeway. I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia because I don't believe a patient should have to suffer if they choose not to, and one of the most ridiculous accusations presented by those who oppose euthanasia is that doctors would then start killing patients without their consent in order to lower their workload. This scene only serves to reinforce this stupid argument and I cannot stand it.
Time loops, Janeway dies again, then we realise the whole episode up until this point was pointless. A good plot twist is one that makes you think "Ooooh, now I understand. That makes perfect sense." A bad plot twist is one that makes you think "That's it?!" This episode has the latter.
Then the episode becomes a rehash of The Next Phase, the crew thinks Janeway is dead but she is a ghost-like figure who is invisible and can move through objects. She tries to get the crew to find her in some predictably boring scenes, and then her father shows up. Now this episode has a chance to be something meaningful at long last, but I never got the sense that anything which was going on was anything more than mundane, which is really surprising considering the circumstances.
Then we have the memorial service in the mess hall and Kim gives a speech. Oh boy... You all know the old axiom "show, don't tell", well this episode completely ignores that. Kim tells the story about a time when he and Janeway ate some fruit together on a planet and it is really emotional and blah-blah-blah. The whole thing felt very phony and later I figured out why; not only did this scene never happen on screen, but the only time I can remember Janeway and Kim having any kind of heart-to-heart was at the end of Emanations, and that wasn't all that personal. The fact is that Janeway and Kim do not have a great relationship and pretending that they do just doesn't work.
Then Janeway's dad turns evil and starts demanding that Janeway join him in the afterlife, which turns all orange and evil-looking just in case the ham-fisted dialogue was too subtle for the more stupid members of the audience. Luckily Janeway starts getting flashes of what is going on in reality and she manages to hear important parts of the conversation so that she can figure out that her father is really an alien infestation. Then Janeway's dad says this:
Everything is explained away, there is absolutely no ambiguity, and you realise that everything which happened in this episode didn't really happen. None of the "touching" scenes of the crew reacting to Janeway's death were real, they were a fantasy she herself created because she believes that people should act that way when she dies. I'd like to think that people would be very sad about my death too, even though the reality would probably involve church bells ringing over the joyous news and my funeral will involve people defecating on my corpse.
Then we have one last scene between Janeway and Chakotay which is so pleased with itself and its terrible dialogue that it actually made me nauseous.
0 stars.
I watched Blood Fever yesterday and I haven't had a chance to review it yet because of the fall-out from Coda, so I'll post this now and try to get around to Blood Fever later this afternoon.
I had hoped I wouldn't have to do this, but since my non-review of Coda has caused some consternation I will now rip it apart and show everybody exactly why this episode failed to earn any points. I'll start with the first scene.
Why was this scene played for sexual innuendo?
I don't know if this was intended by the script or if it was a directorial choice or if it was just something the actors did, but this was over-played and unfunny. The last thing I want to think about is Neelix and his junk. Then we go to a scene where Janeway and Chakotay are in a shuttle together. Why? That's not explained until we've seen them be killed a half dozen times, but apparently they were going to a planet to collect samples. The captain and the first officer?
Collecting samples? In a shuttle together? You have frakking science officers for that sort of bullshit!
You don't send your captain and first officer away in a shuttle when you have no way of replacing them. Have these morons learned nothing from what happened in Resolutions?!! Then the shuttle crashes, which is something that is so overdone on this show that I am completely desensitised to it.
Now we enter the near-death experience part of this episode, and the first thing that happens is that the Vidiians show up and act as typical villains. I know this isn't real, but this just furthers the destruction of this initially fantastic species.
Janeway dies, they're back in the shuttle and you realise that they are revising the plot of Cause and Effect. The loop repeats again and eventually they end up on Voyager where Shmullus diagnoses Janeway with the phage. This is the first time that the episode comes across a plot more interesting than the one they eventually go with but for some reason they decide not to go down that route.
Then we get one of the most hideous scenes in the episode, Shmullus "euthanising" Janeway. I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia because I don't believe a patient should have to suffer if they choose not to, and one of the most ridiculous accusations presented by those who oppose euthanasia is that doctors would then start killing patients without their consent in order to lower their workload. This scene only serves to reinforce this stupid argument and I cannot stand it.
Time loops, Janeway dies again, then we realise the whole episode up until this point was pointless. A good plot twist is one that makes you think "Ooooh, now I understand. That makes perfect sense." A bad plot twist is one that makes you think "That's it?!" This episode has the latter.
Then the episode becomes a rehash of The Next Phase, the crew thinks Janeway is dead but she is a ghost-like figure who is invisible and can move through objects. She tries to get the crew to find her in some predictably boring scenes, and then her father shows up. Now this episode has a chance to be something meaningful at long last, but I never got the sense that anything which was going on was anything more than mundane, which is really surprising considering the circumstances.
Then we have the memorial service in the mess hall and Kim gives a speech. Oh boy...
You all know the old axiom "show, don't tell", well this episode completely ignores that. Kim tells the story about a time when he and Janeway ate some fruit together on a planet and it is really emotional and blah-blah-blah. The whole thing felt very phony and later I figured out why; not only did this scene never happen on screen, but the only time I can remember Janeway and Kim having any kind of heart-to-heart was at the end of Emanations, and that wasn't all that personal. The fact is that Janeway and Kim do not have a great relationship and pretending that they do just doesn't work.Then Janeway's dad turns evil and starts demanding that Janeway join him in the afterlife, which turns all orange and evil-looking just in case the ham-fisted dialogue was too subtle for the more stupid members of the audience. Luckily Janeway starts getting flashes of what is going on in reality and she manages to hear important parts of the conversation so that she can figure out that her father is really an alien infestation. Then Janeway's dad says this:
Subtle.
How did this episode not win an emmy for writing?
Everything is explained away, there is absolutely no ambiguity, and you realise that everything which happened in this episode didn't really happen. None of the "touching" scenes of the crew reacting to Janeway's death were real, they were a fantasy she herself created because she believes that people should act that way when she dies. I'd like to think that people would be very sad about my death too, even though the reality would probably involve church bells ringing over the joyous news and my funeral will involve people defecating on my corpse.
Then we have one last scene between Janeway and Chakotay which is so pleased with itself and its terrible dialogue that it actually made me nauseous.
0 stars.
I watched Blood Fever yesterday and I haven't had a chance to review it yet because of the fall-out from Coda, so I'll post this now and try to get around to Blood Fever later this afternoon.
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