A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Warlord (**½)

There is a distress call and the ship goes to help out. There's a Big Bad on the ship and he transfers his consciousness through his hand into the medical professional who is trying to save him. The Big Bad takes control of a main cast member's body and uses it to carry out his nefarious plan with some over-the-top acting. That's when the crew comes up with a convenient technobabble solution to fix the problem and the main character's consciousness is restored.

If you are going to steal a plot from another Star Trek series, DS9 season 1 is not the place you should be getting your inspiration from.

What makes this episode better than The Passenger, other than Jennifer Lien giving a much better performance than Siddig, is the idea that Kes is fighting back against Tieran and Tieran slowly begins to lose control of her body. This is great to watch, but the whole thing is a little undone by the fact that the solution at the end is some technobabble device they stick on Kes' face. Another problem is that Tieran becomes really annoying long before he is finally killed off.

The episode starts badly. Neelix gets a foot-rub, Neelix does some annoying things, Tom and Harry cavort with some women in bikinis, Neelix dances. Worst. Teaser. Ever. The episode ends well with a nice scene where Tuvok informs Kes that she will not be the same person after this experience, she has changed and will have to learn to adapt. I don't remember much about season 3, but I do hope that there is a significant effect upon Kes which lead into her leaving the ship.

3 stars, minus half a star for stealing a plot from DS9.


EDIT: I forgot to update the torpedo counter after Janeway fired that torpedo in Future's End. They have now fired 20 of 38 torpedoes.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Warlord" is one of my top 5 favorites.

Definitely the best "character take-over" episode, mainly because here we do have a taken-over character who actually is fighting back and not only acting weird. Jennifer Lien is superb in her acting and Kes's mental confrontation with Tieran is the high spot of an excellent episode. The break-up between Kes and Neelix is very badly handled though. It should have taken place during 2-3 episodes, most likely after "Parturition" and been better explained. Here it's actually Tieran who breaks up with Neelix.

As for

Spoiler: Kes during the rest of the season

nothing is actually changed. She is basically the same which makes the reasons for her "leaving" in "The Gift" even more ridiculous

Despite some minor flaws, it's an excellent episode. I'll give it 5 points out of 5!

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Warlord (**½)

Agreed. I enjoyed this episode far more than 'The Passenger' for many reasons, including Lien's performance being superior to Siddig's, and because a tyrant in what amounts to a little girl's body (yet with psychic powers) is much more intriguing. But like you say - this episode still has some issues - the moronic teaser and the technobabbly solution.

I really do feel that Tuvok telling Kes she won't be the same has some quantifiable payoff, as we start to see her grow more as an adult from this point out. I think she starts behaving more confidently. See 'Before and After.' I do agree that the Neelix/Kes breakup does seem like an afterthought here.

I still remember laughing at how overhyped the part where Kes kisses Tieran's girlfriend was in the previews. Yeah, that's why I tune in. Girls kissing.

EDIT: I forgot to update the torpedo counter after Janeway fired that torpedo in Future's End. They have now fired 20 of 38 torpedoes.

Ah, only 18 more!

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I love the bit in part 1 where they've got changed into supposedly 1990's clothes that'll fit in and Tuvok looks around at the diverse crowds and says 'We could have worn our Starfleet uniforms'

Heh!

That's my neighborhood!

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I still remember laughing at how overhyped the part where Kes kisses Tieran's girlfriend was in the previews. Yeah, that's why I tune in. Girls kissing.

Did they kiss? I only saw Kes leaning in to kiss the other woman but being called away at the last second, causing me to declare that the writers are cowards. Damn, I might have missed Voyager's greatest moment.


The Q and the Grey (*)

But what is not insignificant is the fact that the Q, as an omnipotent race, have an opportunity to be a positive force to set a higher standard for other beings in the galaxy. I implore you all, don't go through with this. Don't allow yourselves to continue using violence to resolve your differences.

30 seconds later a group of Humans stormed over the hill and started shooting with weapons that can destroy entire star-systems. I believe that shows the level of thought which went into this episode.

I said back in Deathwish that the "hilarious" antics of Q nearly derailed an attempt to explore an important social issue. Well this time round it gets derailed and falls off a cliff. The first two acts are complete filler about Q trying to get Janeway in the sack, the middle act is okay and the only time things are taken seriously, and the final acts turn into an absurd technobabblely pile of manure. To put it simply, it's crap.

For example, did you know that by re-modulating the deflector and emitting an anti-proton burst they can reinforce the shields enough to fly into an exploding star? And what happens when Voyager flies into the continuum? The crew put on Union uniforms and start killing Q. This is horrible stuff, and it is made even worse by making Voyager's involvement having absolutely no meaning at the end, they are only involved because Q felt that doing it with another Q is icky. And then there is a big reset-button at the end.

There is some funny lines at the beginning of the episode, but everything else is dumb crap which only serves to make Q insufferable. I can see why so many people said they dropped out during season three; there is no direction and the episodes so far have been poor to average. Out of eleven episodes this season's current score is 3.5/10. The first season had so much promise, but this is beginning to turn into a struggle.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^^
They never kissed.

As for "The Q And The Grey", I find it a mediocre episode. Q is always entertaining (I really like that guy) but the whole story with its Civil War scenario feels strained and the only thing that saves the episode is the interaction between Janeway and Q and most of all the female Q who is brilliant. Wonderful character!

Sorry all Q's but I'll give this episode 2 points out of 5.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Warlord

I didn't like it, because that was too much overacting for me - but at least Jennifer had some fun and significant screentime.

Q and the Grey

I love Q. I also loved this episode. I can't protect this, because it is as it is - but I really enjoyed it as fun entertainment with great visuals. It will all go downhill from here - with a brief flash of brilliance in Fair Trade and Unity, until the last few (oh god Distant Origin, it's heaven) episodes. Honestly I feel that Q and the Grey was one of the better Season 3 episodes, especially in retrospective.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I enjoyed Warlord myself, because it's obvious that Jennifer Lien is enjoying playing Tieran. I always enjoy watching the actors obviously having fun with the role. Yeah, the story gets bogged down a little too much in technobabble, but it did give her something to do, which was a big problem among the Voyager writers.

And yeah, they may have stole a DS9 plot, but at least they managed to make it a little better - I buy telepathy-induced mental takeovers a lot easier than a technological 'soul' swap or whatever.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Dunbarr has a name and he is awesome.

 

[Praetorian]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Aye, I must say that "Warlord" was somewhat enjoyable (however the teaser was indeed the worse ever..), but "The Q and the Grey" was simply crap.

However I must say that I watched "The Passenger" recently, and it seemed much better than I remembered...=P Especially the Odo/Starfleet conflict. Plus the bad guy gets vapourised at the end.. Something was terribly wrong with Siddig's acting though...While Lien's was quite good I thought..

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Siddig's acting though...While Lien's was quite good I thought..

Agreed, Lien did a fine job with the role. I still don't know what was up with Siddig in that episode, he wasn't normally a bad actor and had some great scenes in later seasons, but for some reason in The Passenger he was rubbish. He somehow managed to be completely wooden while hamming things up.

Although the worst acting I can remember in Trek has to be the guy who played Cal Hudson in The Maquis. He sounded so bored in every scene that I wouldn't have been surprised if he suddenly fell asleep, even during the climactic space battle.

 

[Dane_Whitman]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Hang in there GodBen, you're going trough a rough stretch of episodes, but things kind of improve towards the end of the season. I've been rewatching season 4 and overall I've enjoyed this season far better than 2 and 3.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I thought Warlord was average. Definitely watchable. Lein does a nice job in it. It doesn't stand out though.

I liked the Q and the Grey. I've noticed a lot of people are really down on all of the Voyager Q episodes, but I enjoy all of them in one way or another. Q has a history of involving humans in his hijinx for no particular reason, so I don't have a problem with him doing it here. Sometimes I think he just wants an audience.

The treknobabble..well I'm just used to it at this point. Sometimes it is tiresome, sometimes it is outlandish, but it's Trek. TNG and Voyager are both full of it, and I never let it ruin an otherwise enjoyable episode.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I still remember laughing at how overhyped the part where Kes kisses Tieran's girlfriend was in the previews. Yeah, that's why I tune in. Girls kissing.

Did they kiss? I only saw Kes leaning in to kiss the other woman but being called away at the last second, causing me to declare that the writers are cowards. Damn, I might have missed Voyager's greatest moment.

Yeah, my bad. It's been a while. But still, that moment was incredibly overhyped.

The Q and the Grey (*)

30 seconds later a group of Humans stormed over the hill and started shooting with weapons that can destroy entire star-systems. I believe that shows the level of thought which went into this episode.

I said back in Deathwish that the "hilarious" antics of Q nearly derailed an attempt to explore an important social issue. Well this time round it gets derailed and falls off a cliff. The first two acts are complete filler about Q trying to get Janeway in the sack, the middle act is okay and the only time things are taken seriously, and the final acts turn into an absurd technobabblely pile of manure. To put it simply, it's crap.

I agree. I enjoyed it, and I might argue it deserves a second star (or at least a half-star for Suzie Plakson), but unfortunately this episode is more cheese than meat.

Dunbarr has a name and he is awesome.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I still remember laughing at how overhyped the part where Kes kisses Tieran's girlfriend was in the previews. Yeah, that's why I tune in. Girls kissing.

Did they kiss? I only saw Kes leaning in to kiss the other woman but being called away at the last second, causing me to declare that the writers are cowards. Damn, I might have missed Voyager's greatest moment.

Yeah, my bad. It's been a while. But still, that moment was incredibly overhyped.

And you can lead a camel to bourbon.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The thing with Q is the success of the character on TNG was almost entirely thanks to the ability of John de Lancie to lift the often abysmal material into something memorable.

Look at Encounter at Farpoint - Q is the best thing in it, but the dialogue is abysmal. It's almost impossible to deliver, but JDL (as I shall henceforth call him!) puts in a virtuoso performance. A lesser actor could have killed off Star Trek's revivial before it had truly begun.

Fortunately in some of his later appearances, the writing improved. Then in Voyager, he became a one-note comic character, which is about as far from the original concept as you can get.

 

[Frazzled]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TNG was the opposite of Voyager in my opinion in that the first season was pretty naff and it got much much better.

I did wonder when I saw Q and the Grey what on earth had happened, I must admit. How far Q had moved from the guy who wanted to kill off humanity and had no respect for Picard to some slapstick guy trying to bed Janeway. I think he had started to soften by All Good Things, haven't seen it for yonks but I remember him and Picard having a fairly civilised conversation towards the end, though I don't remember him being funny - that seems to have been reserved for now.

Oh someone tell me how to post a spoiler!!! I wanted to add something about a certain much debated event in Before Dishonour involving Q, not that anyone probably doesn't know about it by now anyway, and it's just not working!! Anyway, said thing involving Q in BD makes my head hurt a lot it's so different again from either the villain in TNG or the comic in Voyager.

I did enjoy Q and the Grey although as GodBen said in the original post the violent scenes weren't great, ironically proving the point Q made in Encounter at farpoint, albeit possibly in self defence.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TNG was the opposite of Voyager in my opinion in that the first season was pretty naff and it got much much better.

I did wonder when I saw Q and the Grey what on earth had happened, I must admit. How far Q had moved from the guy who wanted to kill off humanity and had no respect for Picard to some slapstick guy trying to bed Janeway. I think he had started to soften by All Good Things, haven't seen it for yonks but I remember him and Picard having a fairly civilised conversation towards the end, though I don't remember him being funny - that seems to have been reserved for now.

Oh someone tell me how to post a spoiler!!! I wanted to add something about a certain much debated event in Before Dishonour involving Q, not that anyone probably doesn't know about it by now anyway, and it's just not working!! Anyway, said thing involving Q in BD makes my head hurt a lot it's so different again from either the villain in TNG or the comic in Voyager.

I did enjoy Q and the Grey although as GodBen said in the original post the violent scenes weren't great, ironically proving the point Q made in Encounter at farpoint, albeit possibly in self defence.

Here is a quick wizard for spoiler-posting.

If you look at the bar over this white square where you're writing the text, there are a lot of symbols for smilies, writing text in bold and italics and so on. To the far right is a yellow smilie. Click on that one and the spoiler tags will show up in your text. First write what the spoiler is about (that information will show up on the gray spoiler-button in your text, then write the content of the spoiler between the spoiler tags.

To be sure that you've done the right thing, preview the post before submitting it.

Happy spoiling............or what?

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I like "The Q and the Grey" - it's not the best Q episode, but I enjoy it. What can I say? I just did. The interactions between Janeway and Q were particularly good.

 

[Frazzled]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Here is a quick wizard for spoiler-posting.

Thanks Lynx. Will give it a go.

Spoiler: Q

How did Q then turn from Bad Guy to Comedian to Janeway's personal Saviour? And bluurrggghhhh why would she want to spend eternity in the continuum it looks horrible in this episode?