A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

hehe, good one. I actually needed to search memory alpha to remember the date.

Well I got fooled by Jammer's review of the BSG finale today, I felt I had to pull my own humorous stunt. Back to the reviews.


Deadlock (**½)

I think this episode sums up what we were saying about Braga a page or two back; he has great ideas but struggles in the execution sometimes. This episode seems to be predicated on the idea of Voyager getting blown all to hell, and when that is all that is happening in the first two acts it makes fantastic television. Harry gets blown out into space through a breach in the hull, the Wildman baby dies just minutes after birth, the bridge is evacuated due to the massive damage Voyager is sustaining... this is Voyager as you have never seen it before.

But then comes the realisation that there is a duplicate Voyager where everything is okay. This is a good idea, but it struggles to make any sense, and the third and fourth acts are filled with technobabble limitations to the problem. My solution would be that one Voyager should turn to port while the other turns to starboard, that should separate them, but I don't remember this most logical course of action even being discussed, it is all "deflector array" this and "anti-matter reserves" that.

Then you have the final act where the Vidiians attack, which is exciting but destroys everything the first two acts had going for them by having Harry take the baby and bring it back to the damaged Voyager. Another problem I have is that the Vidiians are just used as evil villains and that goes against the thing that makes them so interesting; the plight of their illness. It really could have been anybody boarding the ship.

At the end of this episode Voyager is in pieces and their energy reserves are nearly empty, and I'm almost certain that this isn't going to have an impact on the next episode when it really should. I have a choice; I can either deduct a star from this episode for showing such extreme damage or I can deduct it from the next episode which isn't going to follow up on it. I have chosen to deduct it from the next episode because I'm not going to penalise this episode for taking risks and doing something exhilarating, this episode should be rewarded for that.

That being said, I'm still taking away half a star because the warp engine was working in this episode even though there was no resolution about that last week.

Harry deaths: 2

 

[StarryEyed]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I despised this episode. It was a chaotic mess.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Investigations (*)

Hmm, while I wouldn't call this a stellar episode only one star is a bit low, imo. I rather like the angle of the understimated Neelix figuring out what was going on. As for "Janeway not trusting Chakotay" I saw it more as a matter of Tuvok not trusting him and Janeway listening to the advise of her closest friend and confidant. You can tell that Chakotay knows this by the looks he gives Tuvok.

This all ties in with one of the more underdeveloped but great potential dynamics on the show and that is the dynamic between Chakotay and Tuvok and their roles as Janeway's advisors. You can see this dynamic shift a bit as "Basics" comes around. I won't go into details here but look for it if you think of it.

I'll agree with your points here regarding the character dynamics, and regarding Neelix being 'underestimated' and therefore it being interesting for him to solve the crime - but there needed to be a more plausible reason why the all-seeing Tuvok wouldn't have picked up on any of it for this to work. And of course, there are the other logical problems with the way the episode plays out that still bother me.

hehe, good one. I actually needed to search memory alpha to remember the date.

Well I got fooled by Jammer's review of the BSG finale today, I felt I had to pull my own humorous stunt. Back to the reviews.

You certainly confused the hell out of me for a moment. I hate April Fools' Day. (And I like cats. )

Deadlock (**½)

I think this episode sums up what we were saying about Braga a page or two back; he has great ideas but struggles in the execution sometimes. This episode seems to be predicated on the idea of Voyager getting blown all to hell, and when that is all that is happening in the first two acts it makes fantastic television. Harry gets blown out into space through a breach in the hull, the Wildman baby dies just minutes after birth, the bridge is evacuated due to the massive damage Voyager is sustaining... this is Voyager as you have never seen it before.

I agree. I may get blasted for saying it, but I honestly think if this and the Vidiian plot was what actually happened in the episode, I would have enjoyed it more. I agree regarding your assertions about the rest of the episode, though. While the idea of a duplicate Voyager is interesting, it's not handled very plausibly or logically for my money. I think I'd have done something more like 'Parallels' if charged with the same basic premise, but even that feels so underwhelming. And I also agree that the Vidiians were a bit misused, but I enjoyed seeing them nonetheless.

At the end of this episode Voyager is in pieces and their energy reserves are nearly empty, and I'm almost certain that this isn't going to have an impact on the next episode when it really should. I have a choice; I can either deduct a star from this episode for showing such extreme damage or I can deduct it from the next episode which isn't going to follow up on it. I have chosen to deduct it from the next episode because I'm not going to penalise this episode for taking risks and doing something exhilarating, this episode should be rewarded for that.

That being said, I'm still taking away half a star because the warp engine was working in this episode even though there was no resolution about that last week.

Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)

Harry deaths: 2

"We'll see you soon, Harry."

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deadlock (**½)

Aw, cmon! The "Welcome to the bridge" - KABOOM scene alone had to be worth three stars.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It was a good scene.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deadlock (**½)

Aw, cmon! The "Welcome to the bridge" - KABOOM scene alone had to be worth three stars.

That did indeed nudge it up to three stars, it is an awesome scene, but I had to take half a star off because of the lack of resolution to the warp core problem from the last episode. I make up arbitrary rules which I uses to unfairly judge the innocent, and I refuse to break my rules even though I easily could; there is a reason I put God before my name.

 

[Robotech Master]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

So is this the last time we see the Vidiians?

 

[Daikirai]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deadlock (**½)

Aw, cmon! The "Welcome to the bridge" - KABOOM scene alone had to be worth three stars.

That did indeed nudge it up to three stars, it is an awesome scene, but I had to take half a star off because of the lack of resolution to the warp core problem from the last episode. I make up arbitrary rules which I uses to unfairly judge the innocent, and I refuse to break my rules even though I easily could; there is a reason I put God before my name.

Is it because it's "dog" misspelled?

 

[DWF]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)

I really can't understand this complaint at all, DS9 lost an upper pylon in To The Death it was fixed and nobody mentioned it was even detached from the station afterward.

 

[tomalak301]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

So is this the last time we see the Vidiians?

I know we see them again in Fury, but I wish we'd have gotten more on the Vidiians than the Kazon, even though I liked somewhat the Kazon story.

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)

I really can't understand this complaint at all, DS9 lost an upper pylon in To The Death it was fixed and nobody mentioned it was even detached from the station afterward.

DS9 has spare supplies and access to Starfleet. Making repairs is perfectly reasonable in their case. Voyager is alone with no access to a starbase or the SCE.

All that said, the issue with the Jem'hadar vs the Vorta (as well as the issue of their loyalty) would come up again...that was the important part of the episode.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deadlock (**½)

I'd rate this one higher as I've always liked it. I felt it was dark and creepy and interesting. And I love the Vidiians. So I'd give this one **** stars. I don't do half stars, and I think it's better than average. I know what you mean about the problems with the ship, but as I've said before, I have to take each Voyager episode on it's own, otherwise it's hard for me to enjoy it at all.

So is this the last time we see the Vidiians?

Nope. The Vidiians return in "Resolutions", "Coda" & "Fury"; they're referenced in "Infinite Regress" & "Think Tank" - the latter of which mentions that the Phage they suffer from has since been cured.

Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)

I really can't understand this complaint at all, DS9 lost an upper pylon in To The Death it was fixed and nobody mentioned it was even detached from the station afterward.

One of the pet peeves of fans that watch Voyager and actually pay attention, is that one of the missed story opportunities is that Voyager is all on it's own and should be struggling to make repairs and such; the number of shuttles and torpedos and such should have been a constant storyline; they can't stop in at a starbase and get it all sorted out. This makes sense, and could have driven much of the series, but the writers just chose to ignore these basic tennants that truly made Voyager unique in the Trek universe. This a continual flaw throughout the series, with only 1 or 2 exceptions. The writers seemed to feel that since the Enterprise or the Defiant could get fast repairs that so could they, even though the circumstances for their series were completely different, making the series that much harder to accept...and often undermining the better stories within the series.

DS9 however could have had all kinds of help. But, for the record, even though it's plausible they could have had it fixed more easily than Voyager, it would have been nice if this had been referenced in a later episode. I think most fans of DS9 tend to overlook this as only slightly annoying, as this (in a complete reverse of voyager) was much more the exception than the rule. Things on DS9 were almost constantly brought back and referenced - making the relatively few times that this didn't happen, less annoying, though more noticable; reading behind the scenes stories from the writers and production team, it's also obvious that these flaws were often discussed and considered but fell through the cracks, leaving the impression that the writers respected the audience but sometimes made mistakes. Even the episode in question "To the Death" introduced the important recurring character of Weyoun, and followed up on a plotline from TNG's "Contagion".

 

[DWF]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DS9 however could have had all kinds of help. But, for the record, even though it's plausible they could have had it fixed more easily than Voyager, it would have been nice if this had been referenced in a later episode. I think most fans of DS9 tend to overlook this as only slightly annoying, as this (in a complete reverse of voyager) was much more the exception than the rule. Things on DS9 were almost constantly brought back and referenced - making the relatively few times that this didn't happen, less annoying, though more noticable; reading behind the scenes stories from the writers and production team, it's also obvious that these flaws were often discussed and considered but fell through the cracks, leaving the impression that the writers respected the audience but sometimes made mistakes. Even the episode in question "To the Death" introduced the important recurring character of Weyoun, and followed up on a plotline from TNG's "Contagion".

This logic only works for Federation vessels though not DS9 itself and the station was magicnally fixed by the next ep. without any comments about the station even being damaged.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

This logic only works for Federation vessels though not DS9 itself and the station was magicnally fixed by the next ep. without any comments about the station even being damaged.

Actually, that's not true - about the logic of it only being Federation ships, IMO. Any number of supply ships, starfleet vessels and allies could have been in the area to help; Voyager had no such support system. They're on their own. And this was an ongoing flaw in Voyager, where as the more easily accepted DS9 scenario was something of a fluke. But as I said, it would have been nice for a reference in a later episode; that kind of thing was common on DS9. The difference here is that when DS9 didn't reference the problem in a later episode it came as a surprise to the fans, while when it happened on Voyager, people actually expected that level of ignorance and weren't shocked at all.

I don't discount that the DS9 fluke was a mistake, and if the Voyager thing only happened in one episode you'd certainly have a good cause for complaint here, but the problem with Voyager happened on a regular basis...so you don't. There's just no comparison.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)

I really can't understand this complaint at all, DS9 lost an upper pylon in To The Death it was fixed and nobody mentioned it was even detached from the station afterward.

And I'm really irritated by that, it is one of the reasons why I don't rate To The Death and The Quickening as highly as some others do. I was hoping that we would see a new pylon on the station due to the fact it was rebuilt by Starfleet and not the Carddies, but that didn't happen any every time I watch To The Death I have to imagine that the damage is much less than what was shown.

One of the pet peeves of fans that watch Voyager and actually pay attention, is that one of the missed story opportunities is that Voyager is all on it's own and should be struggling to make repairs and such; the number of shuttles and torpedos and such should have been a constant storyline; they can't stop in at a starbase and get it all sorted out. This makes sense, and could have driven much of the series, but the writers just chose to ignore these basic tennants that truly made Voyager unique in the Trek universe. This a continual flaw throughout the series, with only 1 or 2 exceptions. The writers seemed to feel that since the Enterprise or the Defiant could get fast repairs that so could they, even though the circumstances for their series were completely different, making the series that much harder to accept...and often undermining the better stories within the series.

I don't know if you know about Doug Drexler's awesome blog, but he posted this comment on it the other day which addressed this issue:

On BSG we got to do many things that we weren’t able to do on Trek... One thing we were especially pleased about was wrecking the Galactica little by little thru out the life of the series. We always hated that Voyager looked just as good in the finale, as it looked in episode one. We wanted the Voyager to be like the Bluesmobile at the end of the Blues Brothers… it hung on just long enough to get them there, then it sprang apart. We got to do that with the Galactica when it made it’s last jump. It was beautiful.

So apparently the SFX guys wanted the ship to get more damaged as the series went on but they weren't the ones making those kinds of creative decisions.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I don't know if you know about Doug Drexler's awesome blog, but he posted this comment on it the other day which addressed this issue:

On BSG we got to do many things that we weren’t able to do on Trek... One thing we were especially pleased about was wrecking the Galactica little by little thru out the life of the series. We always hated that Voyager looked just as good in the finale, as it looked in episode one. We wanted the Voyager to be like the Bluesmobile at the end of the Blues Brothers… it hung on just long enough to get them there, then it sprang apart. We got to do that with the Galactica when it made it’s last jump. It was beautiful.

So apparently the SFX guys wanted the ship to get more damaged as the series went on but they weren't the ones making those kinds of creative decisions.

I had recently discovered Doug's blog, but I'd not read that bit. It is comforting to know that there were people behind the scenes talking about these problems, though it sucks that they weren't able to get that kind of thing into the actual series.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Cats in the Cradle (**½)

This isn't a great episode, but it does have some nice character moments and it ties in nicely to one of my favourite TOS episodes. Meeting the Old Ones mentioned by Korob and Sylvia in Catspaw is something I hoped would happen for a long time, but the idea that they live in the Delta Quadrant doesn't seem to tie in with the previous claim that they live in some other realm without sensation. But I guess you just have to go along with it.

The story is fairly pedestrian, Voyager comes across aliens with magic powers, Voyager asks to be sent home, the aliens turn out to not be what they seem and then then turn into giant cats and chase Janeway and Paris through some corridors. This is just covering old ground that we already saw on TOS.

However this episode has some great character development for Harry Kim who really comes alive as a character like I've not seen him before. He dies, of course, but the heroic sacrifice he makes by standing up to the giant cat with only a sword in hand was deeply emotional. But then Shmullus goes and undoes the emotional punch of this episode by reviving Kim with some medical jargon.

And I'm not sure why they decided to use the same puppets from TOS when they could have come up with something much better using computer graphics. At least you can't see the strings this time.

A fun outing that gets a little silly but some great character work.

Ah, you did fool me there! I thought: "What's that? Must be one of the season 7 episodes I never watched."

But the title did look so strange, not familiar at all. Then, all of a sudden I realized what day it was!

Brilliant! I love when people do succeed in fooling me on this day. It seldom happens but when it does, then it's often brilliant.

I'll give the attempt to fool us 5 points out of 5!

I would love to see Neelix and Kim being surrounded by those big angry cats and in an attempt to soothe them, the start singing this song:

"And the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon,
Little boy blue and the man n the moon.
when you comin home?
son, I dont know when. well get together then.
You know well have a good time then."

"Cats In The Cradle"
Ugly Kid Joe

By the way, those cats may have been Lynxes!

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I think GodBen, Gotham Central, and neogothboy74 have basically summed up my feelings about why continuity issues like this are annoying, and why Voyager in particular is a special case where extra attention should have been paid.

And I think Doug Drexler has proven once again that he and his fellows in the art department were much more aware of this type of stuff than we have generally given them credit for - they were only shot down by TPTB.

And I'm really irritated by that, it is one of the reasons why I don't rate To The Death and The Quickening as highly as some others do. I was hoping that we would see a new pylon on the station due to the fact it was rebuilt by Starfleet and not the Carddies, but that didn't happen any every time I watch To The Death I have to imagine that the damage is much less than what was shown.

If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.

It's all rather a giant wink, but it makes it just a tad better, IMO.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.

While this may have been possible (and it is what we have to accept because it seems to be exactly what happened), I don't understand why they rebuilt it exactly like the original. DS9 was built upon 40 year-old Cardassian technology, it would have been nice if they decided to rebuild the new pylon as a more advanced and efficient Starfleet pylon. It would have added character to the station.


Innocence (*)

Tuvok is involved in a crash in the jungle, he struggles to try and escape while mysterious strangers try to stop him, and there is a monster. It's LOST... In Space!

The problem with this episode is that everybody acts stupid, nobody talks to one another or bothers explaining what is going on until after there has been a lot of needless confrontation. It really is like an episode of Lost without the charm. It ends with a long scene of exposition where everything is explained and suddenly everyone is friends and all is forgiven. Basically, the whole plot is pretty pointless.

It's not bad, there is some good characterisation for Tuvok and that prevents the episode from being a complete dud. I don't really have much else to say about this episode.

Minus one star because Voyager is miraculously back to normal after nearly being destroyed in the last episode.

PS Is anyone else curious as to how one would give birth to a fully grown 80-year-old person?

 

[Robotech Master]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Star Trek's version of 'The Curious Case of Benajamin Button'!

This episode didn't do a whole lot for me. It was pleasant enough but kind of pointless.

I don't know if we really needed a whole episode to gather that Tuvok was a good parent. It could have been a subplot in a more substantive episode, IMO.

Or it might have been better if it had used the rest of the cast more effectively.