A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I watched "The Gift" the other day...not an episode I ever thought of much. I was really impressed, it was a tight script, with good development for 2 characters. Not bad this Voyager..

RAMA

I hate "The Gift". Horrible episode with a ridiculous plot. One of Voyager's worst.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

As for "The 37's", I like that episode. OK, some flaws here and there, like the truck in space and the whole plot with Voyager running into a bunch of abducted aliens and a human colony in the Delta Quadrant is a bit over the top. But still a good episode.

What I would have liked is that their stay on that planet would have lasted for two-three episodes with some crewmembers really considering staying there, maybe some adventures with helping the people on the planet defend themselves against Kazon, Vidiians or other hostile species.

The episode also contains one of Voyager's finest moments. The scene where Janeway and Chakotay are entering the cargo bay to say goodbye to those who had decided to stay on the planet and there's no one there.

Wonderful scene! And yes, it was supposed to be the season 1 finale. As a matter of fact, the stardates for the episode is a season 1 stardate and in most European countries the episode (together with "Projections, Elogium and Twisted) were aired as season 1 episodes. Personally I do regard those episodes as season 1 episodes because of the stardates and the production.

As for "Initiations", I do find that a good episode as well. I like the interaction between Chakotay and Kar and it also give us a good insight in Kazon culture. The episode also has some very exciting moments. However, some flaws here too, as when Chakotay was out in a shuttle to practise his religion. Couldn't he had done that in his quarters, as he usually did. Besides that, they should have come up with a real tribe and real religious customs for him.

My points for the episodes:

The 37's: 3 points out of 5

Initiations: 3 points out of 5

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^I'm with you Lynx on your points. Both episodes were definitely worth of 3/5.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I rate Voyager episodes on a completely different scale than I do the other Treks. When I rate a Voyager episode as good or great, I mean that it's good or great for a Voyager episode - not necessarily as a Trek episode. I often find myself overlooking inane plot devices in a Voyager episode that I wouldn't forgive in another Trek. But even grading on a curve I find 'Initiations' sub par. I like it far less than any Season 1 episodes, and I remember being very disappointed as a viewer with these early Season 2 efforts, which were thankfully surpassed with later installments - it just took a while to get to better material. As was mentioned previously, I would grade 'The 37's' slightly higher, but only because of the emotional pay off from previous stories, and the fun landing sequence, which at the time was a first. But I thought the Kazon came off terribly in 'Initiations'. I respected the idea of exploring Kazon culture, since they were apparently sticking around, I just thought this first attempt to deepen them was a huge failure, and is another example of a Trek episode that I like to pretend never happened.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I rate Voyager episodes on a completely different scale than I do the other Treks. When I rate a Voyager episode as good or great, I mean that it's good or great for a Voyager episode - not necessarily as a Trek episode. I often find myself overlooking inane plot devices in a Voyager episode that I wouldn't forgive in another Trek. But even grading on a curve I find 'Initiations' sub par. I like it far less than any Season 1 episodes, and I remember being very disappointed as a viewer with these early Season 2 efforts, which were thankfully surpassed with later installments - it just took a while to get to better material. As was mentioned previously, I would grade 'The 37's' slightly higher, but only because of the emotional pay off from previous stories, and the fun landing sequence, which at the time was a first. But I thought the Kazon came off terribly in 'Initiations'. I respected the idea of exploring Kazon culture, since they were apparently sticking around, I just thought this first attempt to deepen them was a huge failure, and is another example of a Trek episode that I like to pretend never happened.

Well said. I may have to try your modified scale for my Voyager and Enterprise viewings and see if it works.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well said. I may have to try your modified scale for my Voyager and Enterprise viewings and see if it works.

I did use the same approach for most of the first 2 seasons of Enterprise, but with the huge improvement in quality towards the end of Season 2 and into Season 3 - I happily reverted the scale to compare Enterprise with the rest of Trek, sometimes to the detriment of the episodes reviewed, but it was still more rewarding that way.

I have never rewatched the first 2 seasons of Enterprise as a whole; I think in many cases that section is just impossibly bad. I do revisit it on occasion, but I only go back and watch the episodes that IMO didn't completely suck. Which is (sadly) a fairly small number of installments. Thankfully the final 2 seasons redeemed themselves nicely.

 

[brcarthey]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I rate Voyager episodes on a completely different scale than I do the other Treks. When I rate a Voyager episode as good or great, I mean that it's good or great for a Voyager episode - not necessarily as a Trek episode. I often find myself overlooking inane plot devices in a Voyager episode that I wouldn't forgive in another Trek. But even grading on a curve I find 'Initiations' sub par. I like it far less than any Season 1 episodes, and I remember being very disappointed as a viewer with these early Season 2 efforts, which were thankfully surpassed with later installments - it just took a while to get to better material. As was mentioned previously, I would grade 'The 37's' slightly higher, but only because of the emotional pay off from previous stories, and the fun landing sequence, which at the time was a first. But I thought the Kazon came off terribly in 'Initiations'. I respected the idea of exploring Kazon culture, since they were apparently sticking around, I just thought this first attempt to deepen them was a huge failure, and is another example of a Trek episode that I like to pretend never happened.

interesting...i grew up on the TOS and SW movies and TNG too and yet now when i try to go back and watch it. i have a much harder time watching it than i do of anything that VOY put out. granted, i'm not absolving VOY of some clunkers (what series doesn't have them?), but i find it much more fun and enjoyable to watch than TNG, nostalgia aside. i've even tried to go back and watch the first two seasons of DS9 and can't finish getting through season two. i will say, though, that in watching the final three seasons of DS9 i have a better understanding of why niners like it so much.

so, i realize that as TNG and DS9 fans come over here, it seems on a trek high horse, i don't get what makes them the guardians of all things trek. it just smacks of self-righteous arrogance, one of the attitudes that trek tried to demonstrate as something we could overcome when dealing with one another.

i'm sure there are plenty out there who will tell me where and how i am wrong.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

so, i realize that as TNG and DS9 fans come over here, it seems on a trek high horse, i don't get what makes them the guardians of all things trek. it just smacks of self-righteous arrogance, one of the attitudes that trek tried to demonstrate as something we could overcome when dealing with one another.

I know you're probably not addressing me personally, but I want to take the time to respond to this, respectfully. And to assure you that (at least on my part) no offense was intended. None at all.

DS9 is my favorite Trek. But I've never come here presenting myself as a 'guardian of all things trek'. I don't feel self-righteous or arrogant, though I suppose the self-righteous and arrogant never do. lol. But seriously, I feel like I'm equal to everyone here; not better than; not even a little. We're all obviously Star Trek fans. I've never insulted anyone for being a Voyager fan. That would be self defeating. I Am A Voyager Fan. I come here as a fan of ALL Trek (I own every episode and film on DVD, and a disturbing number of the books), and if my opinions upset you, that was never my intent. My views on, and appreciation of, and disappointment with Voyager might contrast greatly with other fans. This doesn't bother me. I don't laugh at or denigrate people that disagree with me. In fact I've always felt that one of the virtues of this board was that it's very civil and that we all got along, despite us all having different opinions. If there have been any outragious clashes or flames I've not seen them or been a part of them - at least not on the Voyager boards (though I've recently seen some heated discussions in the Trek Books section).

However, I do criticize what I feel were misstepes in each of the series. Sometimes that's part of the fun. Sometimes it's very healing. Others may disagree with me, but one of the things I've been enjoying on the boards as I've increased the amout of time I've spent here is hearing other viewpoints; seeing old episodes and stories through fresh eyes. Sometimes that helps me understand certain things, and other times it just confirms or reinforces my first or 2nd impressions of the episodes in question, but it's almost always intereresting. When I meet others that share my opinions, I'm amazed by how it's healed wounds that I didn't even know I had. In such instances, what I thought were solitary frustrations have been shared and somehow become a little less hurtful; a little less painful. It's been almost cathartic.

But none of the Treks are perfect and I don't think I've presented them as such. I don't think any of us have. DS9 (which I feel has the best, most consistant writing) has several clunkers; one example is that I hate the episode "Rivals" with a fiery passion. lol. But I'm sure there are other fans that love that episode; it might even be someone's favorite episode of all time. And that's ok. One opinion is just as valid as another. It's when people start saying that other peoples' opinions shouldn't be considered, or are of more or lesser value that things get ugly. It's when people deem who is or isn't a true Trek fan based on their opinions that what was once a civil discourse becomes something hurtful.

And I just want to express to Blitz, and to everyone, that I hold everyone here in the highest esteem. And I think we have a great thing going here. Let's not spoil it.

Thanks for reading.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

so, i realize that as TNG and DS9 fans come over here, it seems on a trek high horse, i don't get what makes them the guardians of all things trek. it just smacks of self-righteous arrogance, one of the attitudes that trek tried to demonstrate as something we could overcome when dealing with one another.

I know you're probably not addressing me personally, but I want to take the time to respond to this, respectfully. And to assure you that (at least on my part) no offense was intended. None at all.

DS9 is my favorite Trek. But I've never come here presenting myself as a 'guardian of all things trek'. I don't feel self-righteous or arrogant, though I suppose the self-righteous and arrogant never do. lol. But seriously, I feel like I'm equal to everyone here; not better than; not even a little. We're all obviously Star Trek fans. I've never insulted anyone for being a Voyager fan. That would be self defeating. I Am A Voyager Fan. I come here as a fan of ALL Trek (I own every episode and film on DVD, and a disturbing number of the books), and if my opinions upset you, that was never my intent. My views on, and appreciation of, and disappointment with Voyager might contrast greatly with other fans. This doesn't bother me. I don't laugh at or denigrate people that disagree with me. In fact I've always felt that one of the virtues of this board was that it's very civil and that we all got along, despite us all having different opinions. If there have been any outragious clashes or flames I've not seen them or been a part of them - at least not on the Voyager boards (though I've recently seen some heated discussions in the Trek Books section).

However, I do criticize what I feel were misstepes in each of the series. Sometimes that's part of the fun. Sometimes it's very healing. Others may disagree with me, but one of the things I've been enjoying on the boards as I've increased the amout of time I've spent here is hearing other viewpoints; seeing old episodes and stories through fresh eyes. Sometimes that helps me understand certain things, and other times it just confirms or reinforces my first or 2nd impressions of the episodes in question, but it's almost always intereresting. When I meet others that share my opinions, I'm amazed by how it's healed wounds that I didn't even know I had. In such instances, what I thought were solitary frustrations have been shared and somehow become a little less hurtful; a little less painful. It's been almost cathartic.

But none of the Treks are perfect and I don't think I've presented them as such. I don't think any of us have. DS9 (which I feel has the best, most consistant writing) has several clunkers; one example is that I hate the episode "Rivals" with a fiery passion. lol. But I'm sure there are other fans that love that episode; it might even be someone's favorite episode of all time. And that's ok. One opinion is just as valid as another. It's when people start saying that other peoples' opinions shouldn't be considered, or are of more or lesser value that things get ugly. It's when people deem who is or isn't a true Trek fan based on their opinions that what was once a civil discourse becomes something hurtful.

And I just want to express to Blitz, and to everyone, that I hold everyone here in the highest esteem. And I think we have a great thing going here. Let's not spoil it.

Thanks for reading.

I'm just going to start clapping slowly and I'll see if we can get a round of applause going.

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Nobody? Well, I tried.

Very well said, and almost a mirror for my position except the fact that I am arrogant and self-righteous.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm just going to start clapping slowly and I'll see if we can get a round of applause going.

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Nobody? Well, I tried.

Thanks. That means a lot to me. After all, I basically just rambled on about how your (or any) opinion is vaild. And people don't often clap for me unless I'm leaving a family reunion.

Very well said, and almost a mirror for my position except the fact that I am arrogant and self-righteous.

I don't know you well enough to say for sure, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it probably suits you; it probably lends you a certain charm. And if not, well you're probably too arogant and self-rightous to care.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And if not, well you're probably too arogant and self-rightous to care.

Bingo, that's the one!

 

[brcarthey]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

thanks NGB. i agree with just about everything you said. my post wasn't specifically directed at you, but one of your statements is what prompted my reply, "rate Voyager episodes on a completely different scale than I do the other Treks." i realize i may have come across as bitter and/or sensitive, but that wasn't my intention. heck, even VOY fans can't agree on everything about every episode. like you, i like most of trek (disclaimer: not a fan of TOS (on tv) or ENT but that's a long story).

one of my problems is that i probably come at this argument with an incomplete view. while i have more problems with the other trek series, i have never gone over there to say "your show sucks!" i take the view that if i have more negative things to say about a show than positive, then it isn't worth my time to go to those other boards. i haven't seen that a lot bashing here or elsewhere, buti have seen enough that when i do see these types of "criticisms" (present company excluded) from fans of the other series i get into a defensive posture, which i need to learn to let go of. still, not to try and pat myself on the back but, i defended DS9 from my friends who are/were TNG fans when it came out, just as i defended TNG to old school trek fans in my family.

now after all this has been said, i don't think VOY is perfect and as you said "none of the Treks are perfect." there are certainly things i would've done differently too. but, [cliche alert!] hindsight is always 20/20 (and it's always easy quarterbacking from the armchair) [/cliche alert!] and it is what it is. it's what we were given as a trek series. and that's where i think the criticism should be based instead of trying to have a pissing contest b/t each of the series.

again, thanks NGB for your clarification and to quote bartles & jaymes, "we thank you for your support."

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Damn, was I too late for the clap? Cuz that was pretty awesomely stated, neogothboy74.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Damn, was I too late for the clap? Cuz that was pretty awesomely stated, neogothboy74.

Thank you.

But I think we're both happy that you missed catching 'the clap'.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Ick. This is true.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

thanks NGB for your clarification

Anytime. I love to ramble. In fact, I'm tempted to clarify my statements even more; I'm always trying to get to the truth of things... but my roomie says this would be overkill and that everyone understands what's going on. So I'll just stop now and enjoy the happy ending.

 

[RAMA]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The 37s could have been a fanciful adventure, but it turned out mediocre. Only the presence of Sharon Lawrence makes it bearable a second time.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Good assessment and you are right there, RAMA. Sharon Lawrence is quite a good actress and can class up about anything she's in, at least a little.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Sharon Lawrence is quite a good actress and can class up about anything she's in, at least a little.

I'm not sure that she classed up "Wolf Lake", but being the geek that I am, I liked it anyway. lol

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Ew. I'd forgotten about that. Why'd you remind me?