A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The idea of the ship reshaping itself did interest me, even if it was something which could have happened on TNG, the problem is that they claim the ship is being twisted even though that is clearly not what is happening. It is fun to have the crew trying to find their way around on their own ship and it did feel like something we hadn't seen in Trek before, but after the novelty of that wore off the episode just fell flat. I gave the first half a good score, the second half a bad score and then I took half a star away like I do to all episodes which could have happened on TNG.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Twisted (**)

Another episode which could have been done on TNG.

So?

Both shows are taking place on a star ship in space. Similar themes were inevitable. TNG had already ended, so this story took place on Voyager. Simple as that.

Twisted is alright for me too. Could have been better true, but alright as the way it were. I would have given it ** or **½.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen takes away half a star if it could have been done on TNG.

I tend to agree with him (ad naseum, as you know ) because to me the whole point of 'Voyager' was to exploit the clever premise, which actually was doing something other than just another show on a starship exploring, as well as allowing them to create a new 'world' to play in without rebooting the franchise.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I have to agree about the idea of taking away points for being a story told just as easily on TNG - it's like I said about how Phage should have been placed as the first non-pilot episode, since that episode and the Viidians' plight on the whole could only be told in Voyager and in the Delta Quadrant. The idea of being in an alien environment, with no familiar faces, and aliens who have to survive through piracy in various forms (technological or organs) is a goldmine, but instead, Voyager has a heavy emphasis on creating various technobabble plots, and... for what reason? If they did it to isolate the crew into uncommon pairings, then they should be upfront about that. If it's to grant a character a new focus both on themselves and their overall existence, fine - pick a character and go with it. But between this ring (and by the way - a ring? So, Voyager, a starship in 3-D space is surrounded by a 2-D ring? Something's wrong here...) and the various other 'subspace phenomena' or whatever (Chaotic space, the whatever that brought in the 'beings from the fifth dimension', among others), it feels like the setting of the Delta Quadrant is really just there to give the old product a new label.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It feels like the setting of the Delta Quadrant is really just there to give the old product a new label.

Exactly, and for me it only gets worse as the show goes on. The only thing that's 'different' is that the familiar faces aren't there, but many of the situations remain. (And don't get me started on how this applies to 'Enterprise.' *shudder*)

And the technobabble, ye gods, the technobabble!

I'm still a 'Voyager' fan, believe it or not. I love the show. It just could have been SO much better!

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well, "this could have been TNG episode" kind of thinking has never been an issue for me. TNG is TNG and Voyager is Voyager. There are a lot of similarities, but a lot of differences too.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Twisted" is a good episode.

A little weird but exciting and entertaining in a way.

Not to mention that the birthday of Our Favorite Ocampa is celebrated in the episode!

I'll give it 4 points out of 5.

OK, it could have been a TNG episode but so what? It could have been a TOS episode as well, or a DS9 episode too.

Nothing wrong with it as a Voyager episode.

However, I have to agree with Praetor about Voyager, that it could have been so much better than it was.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

True. And how unique was Gamma Quadrant compared to Alpha or Delta Quadrants. Many Gamma Quadrant episodes could have also been TNG or VOY episodes, not to mention all the talks about the similarities between DS9 and Babylon 5. The point is that there is only so much originality in each series. All has been already done in one way or another before nowadays.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'll explain my stance on the Voyager/TNG issue.

A lot of planning went into Voyager's premise and it was a complicated one. The Maquis were pretty much invented so that Voyager's crew could be more argumentative and that involved cross planning between the writing departments on TNG and DS9. So much planning went into the premise of this show that it forced storylines onto other Trek series, and DS9 in particular was left having to deal with the Maquis when they were already planning to introduce the Dominion. TNG's penultimate episode was dedicated to the Maquis. What did Voyager do with all of this planning? A half-dozen episodes about the Maquis and then hardly a mention about them again.

It is unfair to the other Trek series to use them as set-up for a new show when the new show is barely even going to utilise it.

Voyager had a very good premise, probably the best of all the Trek series, and every hour they spent not using that premise to do new and interesting things is an hour wasted in my view. I judge DS9 in the exact same way, I don't like that first season when they were trying to emulate the style of TNG and much prefer it once they started to use the premise correctly in the second year. I feel the same way about how TNG's first and second seasons were trying to copy TOS rather than be its own show.

If Voyager is just going to encounter aliens and anomalies of the week then what is the point of basing it in the DQ? Just bring the ship back to the AQ and have them go up against fan favourites such as the Romulans or Klingons. And if Ron Moore is to be believed then they were actually considering doing that during the later seasons.

So if a story revolves around them finding some new aliens or a weird space anomaly then I will mark it down by half a star for failing to use the premise or characters of this series. If it is an episode which could only happen on Voyager either because they are lost in the DQ or it is character-specific then I wont. If they find a space anomaly or some-such while there is a b-story which is character specific then it will also get a pass (this is how Elogium escaped getting zero stars, because Kes's story was character specific).

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If Voyager is just going to encounter aliens and anomalies of the week then what is the point of basing it in the DQ?

Because there were also other things in the series that did make it unique. And their journey home and isolation from Federation did not change just because they encountered some space anomalies. So there shouldn't have been any space anomalies in the DQ just because there was such things in AQ? In addition, some space anomalies may have been unique for DQ. And since Voyager is Trek, why wouldn't there been space anomalies in DQ kind of episodes?

I am a fan of "space anomaly of the week" kind of episodes, so I did enjoy them no matter what quadrant was in question.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

So there shouldn't have been any space anomalies in the DQ just because there was such things in AQ?

No, that's not what I said. But if they are going to encounter a space anomaly then there should be an a or b story which is character specific. For example, the plot of Heroes and Demons could have been done on TNG, but the character moments revolving around the Doctor prevented me from deducting marks from that episode. Ex Post Facto had a mark taken off because they could easily have done that episode on TNG if they replaced Tom with Riker. When they do an episode where the plot and characters could easily have been adapted to work on TNG then they get a mark taken off.

 

[brcarthey]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If Voyager is just going to encounter aliens and anomalies of the week then what is the point of basing it in the DQ? Just bring the ship back to the AQ and have them go up against fan favourites such as the Romulans or Klingons. And if Ron Moore is to be believed then they were actually considering doing that during the later seasons.

i've heard and read a lot of rumors concerning the direction of voyager, but this is the first i've heard of that rumor, that they were thinking of bringing voyager back to the AQ/BQ to deal with romulans and klingons during the later seasons. can you elaborate?

So if a story revolves around them finding some new aliens or a weird space anomaly then I will mark it down by half a star for failing to use the premise or characters of this series. If it is an episode which could only happen on Voyager either because they are lost in the DQ or it is character-specific then I wont.

does this same sort of grading system get retroactively applied to TNG or DS9? or do they escape that scrutiny b/c they came first? while you're right in that sometimes it can be disappointing when episode premises can be non-series specific, each series only got 7 years on the schedule and therefore not every story could be told. decisions had to be made. then there's also afterthought. thinking of a story for a crew but the time for that storytelling had passed.

so, it seems that your finger may be on the scale in grading voyager that it might not be otherwise for the other series. again, i understand what you're saying about not liking series-specifc premises, but if you downgrade voyager b/c of that then shouldn't that same rule be applied retroactively to the other series in regards to voyager? it's not like characters will all have unique experiences that can only be applied to them and no one else.

i'm pretty sure you won't agree, but i still wanted to hear your thoughts.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I don't think there's much I can add to what GodBen said because (surprise) I basically agree. There are a couple of things I want to address.

This is is how I view episodes that could have been done on TNG or DS9:

So there shouldn't have been any space anomalies in the DQ just because there was such things in AQ?

No, that's not what I said. But if they are going to encounter a space anomaly then there should be an a or b story which is character specific. For example, the plot of Heroes and Demons could have been done on TNG, but the character moments revolving around the Doctor prevented me from deducting marks from that episode. Ex Post Facto had a mark taken off because they could easily have done that episode on TNG if they replaced Tom with Riker. When they do an episode where the plot and characters could easily have been adapted to work on TNG then they get a mark taken off.

Like he said, they spent all that time and effort developing a spinoff that had a different environment and premise and should have had a more careful script 'sieve' to try to weed out the stuff that felt like retread and keep them dramatically on course.

so, it seems that your finger may be on the scale in grading voyager that it might not be otherwise for the other series. again, i understand what you're saying about not liking series-specifc premises, but if you downgrade voyager b/c of that then shouldn't that same rule be applied retroactively to the other series in regards to voyager? it's not like characters will all have unique experiences that can only be applied to them and no one else.

Personally, I judge TOS and TNG separately. TOS is just that - the original. The beginning. It pretty well fulfilled its premise and didn't have to differentiate itself from anything other than what else was on television at the time. Similarly, TNG was just what it said it was, a 'sequel' set in a new century with a new crew. Its premise was largely the same and therefore it did similar (and sometimes sequel) stories.

DS9 and VGR are both spinoffs however - technically DS9 is a spinoff of TNG, and VGR a spinoff of DS9 but I see both latter series as spinoffs of TNG since they are both set in the TNG 'era.' Both DS9 and VGR had unique premises that purposefully set them in a unique circumstance - DS9 to a lesser degree (a dirty environment on the frontier, plus the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant) and VGR to a greater degree (a ship stranded in a wholly unknown area of space, crewed by two distinct groups forced to cooperate to survive.)

In that regard, I personally do find a DS9 episode that could have been done on TNG a disappointment. (These are primarily found in the first three seasons, but a few slip through later on, too.) But I find a VGR episode that could have been done on TNG even more of a disappointment because they went to the extreme that they did to devleop an even more distinct series premise than DS9.

I might even argue that 'Enterprise' was initially at least a TNG spinoff and not a TOS prequel, but I won't go there now.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

each series only got 7 years on the schedule and therefore not every story could be told.

ONLY seven years?

Yes it's true that not every story can be told but they don't even tell the stories that come out of the premise!

* The crew conflict disappears pretty quickly and everyone becomes a Star fleet drones beyond some lip-service to the idea of the Marquis

* The ship is showroom fresh at the start of the series and at the end

* Anomaly of the week is fine in the AQ but in the DQ, I keep waiting for the crew to shout *fuck the anomaly, I want to go home, why do we keep stopping for this shit?"

and on and on and on...

Voyager simply has no emotional truth to me, as the years went on and the characters failed to developed to their situation, it became a complete waste of time. Harry Kim is the same putz in the last episode as he is in the first one.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

i've heard and read a lot of rumors concerning the direction of voyager, but this is the first i've heard of that rumor, that they were thinking of bringing voyager back to the AQ/BQ to deal with romulans and klingons during the later seasons. can you elaborate?

It was something Ron Moore said in his long rant after leaving Voyager, if I remember correctly. I can't find the interview now since the website it was originally on no longer exists and I can't find the mirror of it which was posted in the BSG forum some months back. What he said was that he had discussions with some of the writers on Voyager where they were suggesting that the ship should arrive back in the AQ and turn the show into a TNG style show, but he told them how he felt that it was a bad idea since it would be like admitting defeat. Clearly he didn't have much of an impact on the direction of the show and the show's producers made the decision to stay in the DQ without his influence, but there was some discussion on the matter.

does this same sort of grading system get retroactively applied to TNG or DS9?

Yes. I already said that I disliked TNG's first two seasons because they were trying too much to be like TOS and TNG only came into its own when they started focusing more on character based stories. DS9 was poor in its first season because it was trying to be like TNG with episodic stories that could easily have been done on TNG. It started moving away from those in season 2 and by the end of the show there was only a handful of episodes which could have been done on TNG.


Parturition (**½)

Story: Tom and Neelix crash on a planet and are forced to get past their hatred of one another in order to raise a baby puppet. Co-starring Tom Selleck.

When an episode has that as an outline it deserves some credit if it manage not to completely suck, and this episode managed not to completely suck. In fact most of this episode works until they find their way into the same cave that every planet in the history of Star Trek has.

One thing in this episode which bothers me is Janeway who sends Tom and Neelix on a potentially dangerous mission together even though she knows they are getting into fights with one another. She just says "solve it" in a slightly sadistic tone of voice. She made a potentially dangerous situation worse with little regard for her crew, the least she should have done was send Chakotay along with them to make sure their bickering doesn't get out of hand.

Lets not talk about the puppet and how reptiles are cold-blooded and therefore should not shiver.

There is some good character work done with Paris and Neelix, although I do wish that they just parted company at the end rather than Neelix inviting Tom around for a little al-key-hol. When another man is in love with your girlfriend you shouldn't force him to spend time around her, it will just be awkward for all involved.

There was a food crisis in this episode which wasn't resolved so if the next episode doesn't mention that fact and resolve the issue then it will lose half a star for bad continuity.

Shuttle crashes: 3

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Persistence of Vision (***)

Another tale of two episodes here. The first half is pretty dull due to Janeway's visions about some stupid holonovel, the second half where the crew falls victim to the alien is pretty fun.

About Janeway's holodeck program... one of my favourite novels is The Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro, and I once sat through that Pride and Prejudice film in order to get laid (Result!) and this holonovel of Janeway's just comes across as a really bad parody on those sorts of stories. I don't want to see more of it, so as it begins to break out into the real world it just annoys me.

Then they come across the alien and he begins taking over the ship until Kes saves the day. This is fun and we get to see some really interesting fantasies... except for Tom's. My only problem here is that Kes and the Doctor somehow know how to operate a warp core; that would be like trying to get me to perform an emergency budget for a South American nation I know nothing about with help from Carrot Top.

Once you get past the holonovel bits this is a fun little episode. Half a star detracted due to no mention of the food crisis they had in the previous episode.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Revisits Voyager

* Anomaly of the week is fine in the AQ but in the DQ, I keep waiting for the crew to shout *fuck the anomaly, I want to go home, why do we keep stopping for this shit?"

as the years went on ...it became a complete waste of time. Harry Kim is the same putz in the last episode as he is in the first one.

ROFL.
really enjoyed that. I never thought of it that way. Janeway the scientist...again...geez!
Yeah Harry Kim's character development was pretty small for a 7 year series. He got screen time but the writers just did not develop him. He has a nice friendship with Tom Paris that's about it. Not on the level of respect like Kirk/Bones

I came up with about 5 types of shows Voyager had.

*problem on Voyager within the crew
*anomaly of the week. the closest thing to TOS episodes
*Borg/Species 8472 ongoing enemy battles.
*salvaging/taking dilithium crystals or whatever they needed to go another so many miles.
*holodeck episodes (total fantasy episodes unrelated to anything BUT character development far from science) Although I loved the black and white 'The Adventures of Captain Proton' holonovel. Janeway as Queen Arachnia was memorable.

I watched all 7 season broadcasts but was happy when it ended THAT it ended.
I purchased The Borg fan collective DVD and that has episodes from 3 series and while I do enjoy those Voyager episodes there were some other Voyager episodes with the Borg I would like to see again. I only watched Voyager during initial broadcast and never again.
I remember more sinister Borg episodes with actually even scarier Borg from Voyager episodes.
Maybe I'll search around this subforum for all the good Borg episodes (excluding the ones on The Borg fan collective). If someone can point me to the thread or post(s) would be most helpful.

 

[Praetor]

Re: Revisits Voyager

Agreed with both those rankings and evaluations for the record, Godben. I don't even have anything to add this time.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I would rate "Parturition" lower. I personally don't think it works at all.

"Perisistence of Vision" is slightly better. I think you got the rating right. It's very average, and that's not bad.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

each series only got 7 years on the schedule and therefore not every story could be told.

ONLY seven years?

Yes it's true that not every story can be told but they don't even tell the stories that come out of the premise!

* The crew conflict disappears pretty quickly and everyone becomes a Star fleet drones beyond some lip-service to the idea of the Marquis

* The ship is showroom fresh at the start of the series and at the end

* Anomaly of the week is fine in the AQ but in the DQ, I keep waiting for the crew to shout *fuck the anomaly, I want to go home, why do we keep stopping for this shit?"

and on and on and on...

Voyager simply has no emotional truth to me, as the years went on and the characters failed to developed to their situation, it became a complete waste of time. Harry Kim is the same putz in the last episode as he is in the first one.

I agree with almost everything you say here.