A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Fair Haven isn't that bad an episode as fans like to make it out to be. It is just dull. I really don't care to see Janeway's romance with Michael--hologram or not--they just don't have interesting chemistry.
The episode is also too slow which makes it less a leisurely pace and more a plodding hour. Did we really need the tacked-on anomaly either?
I did like the music and the production. The Irish stereotype doesn't bug me in the slightest.
The problem with Spirit Folk was we really didn't need another fluff episode so soon after Fair Haven. I can't believe they couldn't have come up with a more interesting episode. Afterall they are in the Delta Quadrant. What about the wonders Q spoke of in "Q Who?"--I have to believe he was referring to the DQ.
Also the plot was just too silly. I could care less if a bunch of holograms take Paris and Kim hostage. If I want to see crewmen being held hostage inside a holoprogram by sentient holograms with a compelling jeopardy plot I'll watch "Elementary Dear Data" or "Ship in a Bottle".
Still it isn't the horror many make these two episodes out to be. They are dull, silly but not worthy of vitriol.
Fair Haven isn't that bad an episode as fans like to make it out to be. It is just dull. I really don't care to see Janeway's romance with Michael--hologram or not--they just don't have interesting chemistry.
The episode is also too slow which makes it less a leisurely pace and more a plodding hour. Did we really need the tacked-on anomaly either?
I did like the music and the production. The Irish stereotype doesn't bug me in the slightest.
The problem with Spirit Folk was we really didn't need another fluff episode so soon after Fair Haven. I can't believe they couldn't have come up with a more interesting episode. Afterall they are in the Delta Quadrant. What about the wonders Q spoke of in "Q Who?"--I have to believe he was referring to the DQ.
Also the plot was just too silly. I could care less if a bunch of holograms take Paris and Kim hostage. If I want to see crewmen being held hostage inside a holoprogram by sentient holograms with a compelling jeopardy plot I'll watch "Elementary Dear Data" or "Ship in a Bottle".
Still it isn't the horror many make these two episodes out to be. They are dull, silly but not worthy of vitriol.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
GodBen being Irish, he might find the stereotypes in those episodes a bit more bugging or even offensive.
GodBen being Irish, he might find the stereotypes in those episodes a bit more bugging or even offensive.
Furtados_Feet
Lieutenant
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I think Godben has lost interest in this thread to be honest, some of the reviews could fit on the head of a pin.
I think Godben has lost interest in this thread to be honest, some of the reviews could fit on the head of a pin.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I have no money to offer you GodBen, but I will quite happily give you my VOY DVDs that have Fair Haven and Spirit Folk on them?
And didn't realise you were Irish. That makes the episode even worse then.
I have no money to offer you GodBen, but I will quite happily give you my VOY DVDs that have Fair Haven and Spirit Folk on them?
And didn't realise you were Irish. That makes the episode even worse then.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I think we probably have a good idea of what he will have to say about Fair Haven anyway, don't we??
I think we probably have a good idea of what he will have to say about Fair Haven anyway, don't we??
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Hey, if he does Blink of an Eye and Memorial, and then call it quits I'll be happy. Fair Haven sucks anyway, so it's no use watching that one.
Hey, if he does Blink of an Eye and Memorial, and then call it quits I'll be happy. Fair Haven sucks anyway, so it's no use watching that one.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Ok ok, so miss out Pathfinder and any other episode that refers too much to it, if they bother you, I don't mind them too much.
Definitely miss out both Fair Haven episodes they suck.
Review all the rest and your payment will be our continuing respect and adoration
In return we Voyager lovers will receive .... a higher average rating for season 6 and 7, because you'll be missing the ones you really hate
Ok ok, so miss out Pathfinder and any other episode that refers too much to it, if they bother you, I don't mind them too much.
Definitely miss out both Fair Haven episodes they suck.
Review all the rest and your payment will be our continuing respect and adoration
In return we Voyager lovers will receive .... a higher average rating for season 6 and 7, because you'll be missing the ones you really hate
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
If you have stopped, Godben, the question is, are you still a hater?
If you have stopped, Godben, the question is, are you still a hater?
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Fair Haven (0)
The later half of the 19th century was a turbulent time in Irish history and the political fallout from the period sowed the seeds for the eventual creation of the Irish Free State in 1922. I'm not saying that the episode should have focused on these things because the writers clearly wanted the episode to be a light story about a romantic entanglement with a hologram, but if you're going to play so fast and loose with history then you shouldn't be patting yourself on the back for being so accurate.
I've circled Co Clare in red, it's in the mid-west region. We know that Fair Haven is a coastal town near Co Clare, so that would place it somewhere in Co Galway or Co Kerry, both of which I've circled in blue. Of those two counties it is more likely that Fair Haven is in Co Galway because Janeway enquired about the train to Galway (presumably referring to the city) and there would never have been a direct train line between Kerry and Galway due to the Shannon estuary, the train would have been heading to Limerick city. Using Google Earth I have calculated that the shortest possible distance between Fair Haven and Co Dublin is 160km, or 100 miles. That must be one bloody high castle!
To some this may seem like a minor nit-pick and I would generally agree, but it is a symbol of a huge problem this episode had for me; they keep on throwing in "Irish" references while hardly seeming to understand what they're talking about. But hey, Dublin is a city in Ireland so that makes it authentic.
And I haven't even begun to discuss the Irish sterotyping contained within the episode. What I liked about Chief O'Brien was that he was a person who happened to be Irish, but every single one of the characters in the Fair Haven program is an Irish stereotype who happens to be a person. You have the mischievous drunk stereotype, the rugged yet sensitive stereotype, the red-haired temptress stereotype... The whole town is populated with overused Irish stereotypes, but I guess that makes it "authentic".
I normally don't let this sort of thing bother me so much, and I generally play along with some of the stereotypes such as the drinking and love of potatoes. But the incessant nature of the stereotyping and the name-dropping in this episode while claiming that the whole thing is authentic is very aggravating to me. I hope you understand why I have to give this episode a zero.
Imagine if Tom had decided to make a holoprogram set in an African American community and he has all the black characters being of lower than average intelligence, they survive on a diet of watermelons and fried chicken and they add "izzle" to the end of every second word. Now imagine he set the program in Mississippi in the 1960s and completely failed to mention anything about the racial tensions and the civil rights movement. Now imagine Janeway walking in and saying "This is very authentic work Tom, and I should know because I'm an expert on African American culture, my nizzle".
Never! Never! Never!In return we Voyager lovers will receive .... a higher average rating for season 6 and 7, because you'll be missing the ones you really hate
Fair Haven (0)
Having watched Darby O'Gill and the Little People does not make one an aficionado of Irish history. The program seems to be based in the late 19th century, probably between 1870-1900 in which case the episode is missing several important features; the land war, religious tensions, mass emigration, the Home Rule movement and... oh yeah, the fact that the country was still occupied by a foreign power.
The later half of the 19th century was a turbulent time in Irish history and the political fallout from the period sowed the seeds for the eventual creation of the Irish Free State in 1922. I'm not saying that the episode should have focused on these things because the writers clearly wanted the episode to be a light story about a romantic entanglement with a hologram, but if you're going to play so fast and loose with history then you shouldn't be patting yourself on the back for being so accurate.
Time for a geography lesson, take a look at this map of Ireland.
I've circled Co Clare in red, it's in the mid-west region. We know that Fair Haven is a coastal town near Co Clare, so that would place it somewhere in Co Galway or Co Kerry, both of which I've circled in blue. Of those two counties it is more likely that Fair Haven is in Co Galway because Janeway enquired about the train to Galway (presumably referring to the city) and there would never have been a direct train line between Kerry and Galway due to the Shannon estuary, the train would have been heading to Limerick city. Using Google Earth I have calculated that the shortest possible distance between Fair Haven and Co Dublin is 160km, or 100 miles. That must be one bloody high castle!
To some this may seem like a minor nit-pick and I would generally agree, but it is a symbol of a huge problem this episode had for me; they keep on throwing in "Irish" references while hardly seeming to understand what they're talking about. But hey, Dublin is a city in Ireland so that makes it authentic.
And I haven't even begun to discuss the Irish sterotyping contained within the episode. What I liked about Chief O'Brien was that he was a person who happened to be Irish, but every single one of the characters in the Fair Haven program is an Irish stereotype who happens to be a person. You have the mischievous drunk stereotype, the rugged yet sensitive stereotype, the red-haired temptress stereotype... The whole town is populated with overused Irish stereotypes, but I guess that makes it "authentic".
I normally don't let this sort of thing bother me so much, and I generally play along with some of the stereotypes such as the drinking and love of potatoes. But the incessant nature of the stereotyping and the name-dropping in this episode while claiming that the whole thing is authentic is very aggravating to me. I hope you understand why I have to give this episode a zero.
Imagine if Tom had decided to make a holoprogram set in an African American community and he has all the black characters being of lower than average intelligence, they survive on a diet of watermelons and fried chicken and they add "izzle" to the end of every second word. Now imagine he set the program in Mississippi in the 1960s and completely failed to mention anything about the racial tensions and the civil rights movement. Now imagine Janeway walking in and saying "This is very authentic work Tom, and I should know because I'm an expert on African American culture, my nizzle".
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
All kidding aside this episode doesn't do a very good job at holding one's attention. I'd give it 2 stars. I'm sorry but I don't think it is that awful or that offensive. Entertainment always plays with all sorts of steroetypes--whether about say people from Texas or the South, sci-fi fans being overweight geeky virgins etc. I don't take offense about that.
Sounds like Tom would be running a holoprogram based on an ancient reality show called "Flavor of Love"
All kidding aside this episode doesn't do a very good job at holding one's attention. I'd give it 2 stars. I'm sorry but I don't think it is that awful or that offensive. Entertainment always plays with all sorts of steroetypes--whether about say people from Texas or the South, sci-fi fans being overweight geeky virgins etc. I don't take offense about that.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
And I haven't even begun to discuss the Irish sterotyping contained within the episode. What I liked about Chief O'Brien was that he was a person who happened to be Irish, but every single one of the characters in the Fair Haven program is an Irish stereotype who happens to be a person. You have the mischievous drunk stereotype, the rugged yet sensitive stereotype, the red-haired temptress stereotype... The whole town is populated with overused Irish stereotypes, but I guess that makes it "authentic".
I normally don't let this sort of thing bother me so much, and I generally play along with some of the stereotypes such as the drinking and love of potatoes. But the incessant nature of the stereotyping and the name-dropping in this episode while claiming that the whole thing is authentic is very aggravating to me. I hope you understand why I have to give this episode a zero.
I hate Fair Haven and I hate being put in the postion of defending it...but two quick things.
I think you're being a bit hard on how accurate the portrayal was. The point of the program was for the crew to be able to relax in an Irish town. I think when Janeway says it seems accurate, she means that the buildings, clothing, speech patterns, etc. seem well done.
On the stereotype thing, are you saying that these kind of people DON'T exist in Ireland? Remember these are characters placed in the program to entertain people. If they were all just boring, normal people you could encounter anywhere, but just happened to have Irish accents, what would be the fun in that??
Just like if they made one in Italy, we would probably see the Romeo type guy trotted out, a guy with connections to the mafia, the overbearing Italian mother stereotype telling everyone to "eat up", etc.. I don't think most people think that is all there is to these places. And I can understand the annoyance at stereotypes. Perhaps the problem isn't really the stereotypes, but the lame, half assed, un-subtle, heavy handed portrayal of them. But the point I'm trying to make is, if you take these kinds of people away you're left with a flavorless boring place.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
^ that's fine, until you get someone saying "now this is accurate, except the harp on the sign is backwards"...
imagine if they were in a "historically accurate" representation of 21st century america, every single person there is fat, stupid and eating a macdonalds, and the criticism is "Hey wait, the 'M' should be yellow, not blue"
^ that's fine, until you get someone saying "now this is accurate, except the harp on the sign is backwards"...
imagine if they were in a "historically accurate" representation of 21st century america, every single person there is fat, stupid and eating a macdonalds, and the criticism is "Hey wait, the 'M' should be yellow, not blue"
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I can actually enjoy the scene with Janeway and the Doctor where they debate the merits of using holograms instead of living lovers - this does seem to be a conversation that, given the number of programs specifically designed for sex in the 24th century, would naturally come up. And the idea of utilizing a holographic lover and falling in love with them because you can just edit and alter anything you don't like could have been a commentary on people who enter a relationship thinking in terms of 'oh, I can change that/they'll change after we're together' etc, and loving people for who they are.
However, the show is just so much more interested in being in this rustic Irish stereotype that they completely ignore that idea. And... why in God's name does so much of the crew get involved in this place? Maybe it's just that I can't imagine being separated from my technology, but what's the appeal of this place? I can't imagine that so much of the crew is interested in 'getting away from it all' that they all jump into the idea of a holoprogram set five hundred years prior. DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Good thing this is the only appearance of... oh, crap. 'Spirit Folk.' And that one manages to be even WORSE - I have to go through extensive therapy every time I remember it exists to blank it from my mind...
I can actually enjoy the scene with Janeway and the Doctor where they debate the merits of using holograms instead of living lovers - this does seem to be a conversation that, given the number of programs specifically designed for sex in the 24th century, would naturally come up. And the idea of utilizing a holographic lover and falling in love with them because you can just edit and alter anything you don't like could have been a commentary on people who enter a relationship thinking in terms of 'oh, I can change that/they'll change after we're together' etc, and loving people for who they are.
However, the show is just so much more interested in being in this rustic Irish stereotype that they completely ignore that idea. And... why in God's name does so much of the crew get involved in this place? Maybe it's just that I can't imagine being separated from my technology, but what's the appeal of this place? I can't imagine that so much of the crew is interested in 'getting away from it all' that they all jump into the idea of a holoprogram set five hundred years prior. DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Good thing this is the only appearance of... oh, crap. 'Spirit Folk.' And that one manages to be even WORSE - I have to go through extensive therapy every time I remember it exists to blank it from my mind...
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
This was not a happy-go-lucky period of Irish history, this was a time of political struggle. Yet Janeway, the aficionado of Irish history, thinks the only thing wrong is that a harp is backwards?
And rather than pay lip-service to these important events in the history of the country they spend a whole hour ignoring them in order to focus on tired Irish stereotypes? It's insulting.
Except in Kerry.
Which would be fine were it not for the fact that she is considered "an aficionado of Irish history" yet fails to mention the giant elephant in the room which is the fact that Ireland was occupied by a power which was resented by a large section of the population. We're never told the particular decade which the episode takes place in, but it did take place during the later half of the 19th century in which case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland
This was not a happy-go-lucky period of Irish history, this was a time of political struggle. Yet Janeway, the aficionado of Irish history, thinks the only thing wrong is that a harp is backwards?
And rather than pay lip-service to these important events in the history of the country they spend a whole hour ignoring them in order to focus on tired Irish stereotypes? It's insulting.Well... yes. Admittedly I don't know everyone in Ireland, and I certainly wasn't alive during the 19th century, but don't come across characters like the ones that populate Fair Haven. They probably exist out there somewhere because in a country of 4.2 million people you're bound to come across a couple of dozen who will fit the stereotype, but you're probably not going to find such a high concentration of them as there is in Fair Haven.
Except in Kerry.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
My biggest problem with Fair Haven (aside from it being a stupid and boring episode) is how come Tom gets to use BOTH holodecks 24/7?
What about poor Ensign Blechh who has been saving up his holo-rations or whatever to do some water skiing? And what about actual legitimate uses of the holodeck like for scientific research, security/tactical training, etc.???
"Sorry Tuvok, you can't run those drills today. Mr. Paris is dicking around in Ireland with half the crew again."
My biggest problem with Fair Haven (aside from it being a stupid and boring episode) is how come Tom gets to use BOTH holodecks 24/7?
What about poor Ensign Blechh who has been saving up his holo-rations or whatever to do some water skiing? And what about actual legitimate uses of the holodeck like for scientific research, security/tactical training, etc.???
"Sorry Tuvok, you can't run those drills today. Mr. Paris is dicking around in Ireland with half the crew again."
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