A Season Finale Too Far?

[The Borgified Corpse]

I thought Ianto was the best he has even been in Doctor Who, but did the plot really need him?

I thought that Ianto felt a little off in "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End." He seemed to be lit differently (as was the rest of the Torchwood hub. It was all a lot paler.) and he was acting a bit different as well. Like when he was laughing at the TV; have we ever seen Ianto laugh on Torchwood?

BTW, I was bummed that "Journey's End" didn't have a good cliffhanger ending leading into the next Christmas special the way that "Doomsday" & "Last of the Time Lords" did.

They filmed it, and then deleted it.

It's a good call. "Journey's End" closes on a downbeat note; the RTD Doctor's story has come full circle, with the era opening with the Doctor, alone dining on ashes, and ending with the Doctor alone, dining on ashes. The series is back where it began in 2005.

In addition, tonally "Journey's End" doesn't match to "The Next Doctor." (If you've seen the first two minutes, you'll know what I mean.) The emotional leap from "Journey's End" to "The Next Doctor" is too great for "The Next Doctor" to be the next story in the line. There needs to be some time for the Doctor to work things out and find a new balance.

The story may have come full circle but that doesn't mean that it's a good ending. And even though RTD may be leaving, the show isn't ending. The Doctor isn't going anywhere and neither are we. I think our relationship with the Doctor is far more important than any one writer's relationship with him. I don't like how it provides such an easy ending point for a series that's going to continue anyway.

As for tone changes, that's what these cliffhangers have always been about; leaving the audience with a question mark instead of a sad frowny face. That's part of what made the "Doomsday" cliffhanger so great was that it didn't give you time to breathe after the Doctor's sad goodbye to Rose.

 

[Sci]

I have to laugh at the point that we all need to redisocover our inner 8 year old, that's a pretty lame catch all defence for anyone not liking any element of Dr Who, and really holds about as much water as the Sea of Tranquilliy. Daleks Vs Cybermen, fucking cool, Daleks being waltzed to death, not so good.

I do think that a lot of critiques of Doctor Who actually boil down to applying the standards of adult drama to something that is still designed for children.

 

[wamdue]

I thought Ianto was the best he has even been in Doctor Who, but did the plot really need him?

I thought that Ianto felt a little off in "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End." He seemed to be lit differently (as was the rest of the Torchwood hub. It was all a lot paler.) and he was acting a bit different as well. Like when he was laughing at the TV; have we ever seen Ianto laugh on Torchwood?

has he ever been watching the Paul O Grady show on Torchwood?

 

[Starkers]

I have to laugh at the point that we all need to redisocover our inner 8 year old, that's a pretty lame catch all defence for anyone not liking any element of Dr Who, and really holds about as much water as the Sea of Tranquilliy. Daleks Vs Cybermen, fucking cool, Daleks being waltzed to death, not so good.

I do think that a lot of critiques of Doctor Who actually boil down to applying the standards of adult drama to something that is still designed for children.

If Doctor Who was designed for children it'd be on CBBC at 5.15 like Sarah Jane is, not 7pm on a Saturday evening. It's a show designed for all ages.

Episodes like Blink and Midnight are about as far from a children's show as you can get without nudity and swearing

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I thought Ianto was the best he has even been in Doctor Who, but did the plot really need him?

I thought that Ianto felt a little off in "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End." He seemed to be lit differently (as was the rest of the Torchwood hub. It was all a lot paler.) and he was acting a bit different as well. Like when he was laughing at the TV; have we ever seen Ianto laugh on Torchwood?

has he ever been watching the Paul O Grady show on Torchwood?

No. Heck, I barely recall him smiling on Torchwood. He's usually far more deadpan.

 

[wamdue]

I thought that Ianto felt a little off in "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End." He seemed to be lit differently (as was the rest of the Torchwood hub. It was all a lot paler.) and he was acting a bit different as well. Like when he was laughing at the TV; have we ever seen Ianto laugh on Torchwood?

has he ever been watching the Paul O Grady show on Torchwood?

No. Heck, I barely recall him smiling on Torchwood. He's usually far more deadpan.

he was much improved in S2 of Torchwood, him in Doctor Who feels like more of that, however Doctor Who is more light than Doctor Who, would it really be right to have the Torchwood character be there usual dark selves in Doctor Who?

 

[Stevil2001]

Does anyone ever laugh on Torchwood?

 

[DWF]

Does anyone ever laugh on Torchwood?

Well Gwen looked like she was a good time when Jack was showing her how to shoot a gun.

 

[Timby]

I have to laugh at the point that we all need to redisocover our inner 8 year old, that's a pretty lame catch all defence for anyone not liking any element of Dr Who, and really holds about as much water as the Sea of Tranquilliy. Daleks Vs Cybermen, fucking cool, Daleks being waltzed to death, not so good.

I do think that a lot of critiques of Doctor Who actually boil down to applying the standards of adult drama to something that is still designed for children.

You've brought this up before as a defense for certain aspects of horrible writing in the show, and I'll give my same response: That Doctor Who is a show aimed at entertaining not only adults but also children is not an excuse for being hugely retarded.

Donna's Dance Party in Journey's End qualifies as hugely retarded.

 

[Stevil2001]

I assume you mean "retardedly awesome," of course.

 

[Jim Steele]

well, this keyboard warrior loved it and wishes other keyboard warriors would rediscover their inner eight year old and stop being such a bunch of whiny fan-boy bitches.

So if I happened to not be 100% impressed with Journey's End, I'm a "whiny fan-boy bitch"?

Right, great argument.

I do think that a lot of critiques of Doctor Who actually boil down to applying the standards of adult drama to something that is still designed for children.

And I think people need to start understanding that being written as a family show isn't a fucking get out of jail card or any kind of excuse for a disjointed mess of a season finale.

 

[Sci]

well, this keyboard warrior loved it and wishes other keyboard warriors would rediscover their inner eight year old and stop being such a bunch of whiny fan-boy bitches.

So if I happened to not be 100% impressed with Journey's End, I'm a "whiny fan-boy bitch"?

Right, great argument.

I do think that a lot of critiques of Doctor Who actually boil down to applying the standards of adult drama to something that is still designed for children.

And I think people need to start understanding that being written as a family show isn't a fucking get out of jail card or any kind of excuse for a disjointed mess of a season finale.

Sure, but we don't think that its flaws are so major as to render it a disjointed mess.

 

[Jim Steele]

Sure, but we don't think that its flaws are so major as to render it a disjointed mess.

Which is absolutely fair enough, but it's a bit rich to dismiss all dissenting opinion as "oh, they just don't get it" or "you're just not criticising it properly", which is pretty much what you're doing.

The finale in my view didn't quite become a disjointed mess until the last horrid twenty minutes, but I thoroughly enjoyed it up to that point and still enjoyed it on many levels thereafter. Either way, I don't see why having some major gripes with it makes me a "whiny fanboy bitch".

If I branded you all as having "no taste" and instructed you to remove RTD's cock from your throats, wouldn't you think I was being a bit twattish?

 

[Starkers]

And the quarterback is toast...

Well put JS

 

[Sci]

Sure, but we don't think that its flaws are so major as to render it a disjointed mess.

Which is absolutely fair enough, but it's a bit rich to dismiss all dissenting opinion as "oh, they just don't get it" or "you're just not criticising it properly", which is pretty much what you're doing.

I didn't say a damn thing in defense of or against "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End." What I did say was that I think many critiques against Doctor Who boil down to holding it up to the standards of adult drama, which I think is inappropriate since it is a family program designed to be enjoyable for adults, but primarily, as attested by Steven Moffat, for children. I didn't say all, I didn't say most, I said much, and I didn't specify it for any given episode, either.

The finale in my view didn't quite become a disjointed mess until the last horrid twenty minutes, but I thoroughly enjoyed it up to that point and still enjoyed it on many levels thereafter. Either way, I don't see why having some major gripes with it makes me a "whiny fanboy bitch".

Hi, my name is Sci and I never said that. Someone else by the name of captcalhoun did, thankyew.

If I branded you all as having "no taste" and instructed you to remove RTD's cock from your throats, wouldn't you think I was being a bit twattish?

Honestly, I'm much more inclined to think you're a bit twattish for attributing words to me that I never said.

 

[Jim Steele]

Sure, but we don't think that its flaws are so major as to render it a disjointed mess.

Which is absolutely fair enough, but it's a bit rich to dismiss all dissenting opinion as "oh, they just don't get it" or "you're just not criticising it properly", which is pretty much what you're doing.

I didn't say a damn thing in defense of or against "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End." What I did say was that I think many critiques against Doctor Who boil down to holding it up to the standards of adult drama, which I think is inappropriate since it is a family program designed to be enjoyable for adults, but primarily, as attested by Steven Moffat, for children. I didn't say all, I didn't say most, I said much, and I didn't specify it for any given episode, either.

The finale in my view didn't quite become a disjointed mess until the last horrid twenty minutes, but I thoroughly enjoyed it up to that point and still enjoyed it on many levels thereafter. Either way, I don't see why having some major gripes with it makes me a "whiny fanboy bitch".

Hi, my name is Sci and I never said that. Someone else by the name of captcalhoun did, thankyew.

Y'know, it's possible to make a general address while replying to one person. And you said:

Sure, but we don't think that its flaws are so major as to render it a disjointed mess.

"We". Implying some kind of consensus with those posting similar arguments.

If I branded you all as having "no taste" and instructed you to remove RTD's cock from your throats, wouldn't you think I was being a bit twattish?

Honestly, I'm much more inclined to think you're a bit twattish for attributing words to me that I never said.

[/quote]

Point out one instance of me actually attributing words to you and you'll have a point. I summarised your position in my own words, and repeated something another poster said, but not once was there any implication of you saying those exact things.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I liked it.

 

[ClayinCA]

Me too.

 

[Sci]

Posted by Jingle Steelbells:
Y'know, it's possible to make a general address while replying to one person.

It certainly is. But you said, "Which is absolutely fair enough, but it's a bit rich to dismiss all dissenting opinion as "oh, they just don't get it" or "you're just not criticising it properly", which is pretty much what you're doing.

Which pretty sure as hell implies that you're addressing your comment to me specifically. Between that and the fact that you didn't attribute your quote of me to me but did include an attribution of captcalhoun, it sure as hell looked like you'd mixed us up.

And you said: <SNIP> "We". Implying some kind of consensus with those posting similar arguments.

There sure is a consensus between myself and others. Wanna know what that consensus is? That consensus is that "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End"'s flaws aren't sufficiently major as to characterize them as being incoherent messes. That's it.

If I branded you all as having "no taste" and instructed you to remove RTD's cock from your throats, wouldn't you think I was being a bit twattish

Honestly, I'm much more inclined to think you're a bit twattish for attributing words to me that I never said.

Point out one instance of me actually attributing words to you

I would again point to "which is pretty much what you're doing," to your lack of a quote attribution to me but one for captcalhoun, and to the fact that you started talking about something he'd said in reply to something I'd said.

and you'll have a point. I summarised your position in my own words, and repeated something another poster said, but not once was there any implication of you saying those exact things.

You made no differentiation in your post between what I had said and what captcalhoun had said. You didn't write anything to indicate that you were speaking in reference to another person after having replied to me.

 

[Jim Steele]

Fine, well now it's clarified, so fuckadoodledandy.