A question for people smarter then I.

[thestrangequark]

I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.

No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.

I got my info double majoring in Developmental Psychology with a concentration in neurobiology and Childhood Special Education with a concentration in developmental disorders at NYU, through 6 years working directly with children ages 4-10 as part of a study of the effectiveness of different educational techniques in improving short-term and long-term recall, and through my continuing subscriptions to handful of neurology and psychology journals. But boy, do I feel like a fool, because I could have just googled it.

Silly me.

 

[Data Holmes]

No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.

I got my info double majoring in Developmental Psychology with a concentration in neurobiology and Childhood Special Education with a concentration in developmental disorders at NYU, through 6 years working directly with children ages 4-10 as part of a study of the effectiveness of different educational techniques in improving short-term and long-term recall, and through my continuing subscriptions to handful of neurology and psychology journals. But boy, do I feel like a fool, because I could have just googled it.

Silly me.

That has to be one of the best throwdown responses ever, TSQ.

 

[chardman]

That has to be one of the best throwdown responses ever, TSQ.

For once, you and I are in perfect agreement. That was pretty damn awesome.

 

[Mr Awe]

I have memories from 1 to 2 years of age as well...at least, I think I do.

I have several independently confirmed memories as far back as about 18 months of age. They're definitely just fragments. It's not until about age 4 where my memory is about what I'd consider normal memory.

That's the thing with memories. Our memories are really, really terrible, no matter how accurate we think they are. They are poor reconstructions of incomplete data from inaccurate sensory input, augmented with utter fabrication and beautifully designed to make us think they are good records of reality and to promote false confidence. You can never know for sure if an unconfirmed memory is genuine, a distortion of a genuine memory, an amalgamation of more than one memory, or just made up out of whole cloth, but you can always know for sure that every single memory you have is at the very least biased and only somewhat accurate.

That's probably the most concise yet complete description of our memory that I've read. I know enough to know the research backs you up on every point above.

I guess memory just has to be good enough to help us survive and yet not bog us down in details or distract us with the unimportant. Not to mention it all needs to run on what, like 20 watts or so?

Mr Awe

 

[sonak]

No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.

I got my info double majoring in Developmental Psychology with a concentration in neurobiology and Childhood Special Education with a concentration in developmental disorders at NYU, through 6 years working directly with children ages 4-10 as part of a study of the effectiveness of different educational techniques in improving short-term and long-term recall, and through my continuing subscriptions to handful of neurology and psychology journals. But boy, do I feel like a fool, because I could have just googled it.

Silly me.

well, I guess I'm silly too, because the wikipedia article on childhood amnesia confirms that memories before three are extremely rare, that significant parts of the brain are still forming at that point, and that memories are encoded differently in infants than in an older brain.

So yes, memories can be formed at infancy, but my basic point is valid-memories before three are very rare, and the reasons are as I indicated- the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and is still forming.


Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ The difference is that you said "we don't have infant memories" (implying that it's impossible), whereas TSQ says they're possible but rare in adults.

A word to the wise, I'd trust TSQ on this because she knows her stuff!

Mr Awe

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.

well, I guess I'm silly too, because the wikipedia article on childhood amnesia confirms that memories before three are extremely rare, that significant parts of the brain are still forming at that point, and that memories are encoded differently in infants than in an older brain.

So yes, memories can be formed at infancy, but my basic point is valid-memories before three are very rare, and the reasons are as I indicated- the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and is still forming.

Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Pretty much sums it up.

 

[sonak]

I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.

well, I guess I'm silly too, because the wikipedia article on childhood amnesia confirms that memories before three are extremely rare, that significant parts of the brain are still forming at that point, and that memories are encoded differently in infants than in an older brain.

So yes, memories can be formed at infancy, but my basic point is valid-memories before three are very rare, and the reasons are as I indicated- the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and is still forming.

Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.

er, that wasn't me moving the goalposts, that was me acknowledging error on a minor point. I'm still right that:

1. memories before three are indeed extremely rare

2. the reason is, as I indicated, the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and still forming


so... yeah. I'm being told "I'm completely wrong," because I got a small irrelevant detail of mostly wording wrong while being correct on the main ideas.


I like the dancing goalpost graphic. It's cute.

 

[Davros]

I've done a lot of stupid things in the past 6 decades. The first probably happened when I was 2 years old. I stuck a pair of scissors into a live electrical outlet. I'm told I was pretty much stuck there, screaming "Hot! Hot!" until my brother kicked me loose from it. Apparently I've repressed the entire incident and don't remember it at all.

Does anybody remember anything from when they were two years old? I certainly don't.

I do

 

[Mr Awe]

sonak, Re: "extremely rare". That's not what you said, bud. You said it was impossible, and it is in fact possible.

Mr Awe

 

[Locutus of Bored]

So... yeah. I'm being told "I'm completely wrong," because I got a small irrelevant detail of mostly wording wrong while being correct on the main ideas.

You could have just acknowledged the mistake or moved on and it wouldn't have been a problem. Instead, you decided to be kind of smug and shift the focus of the discussion to another issue no one was debating with you. Plus, you questioned her sources and where she got her information, and then when she gave you her credentials (in addition to a link) you criticized her for listing her background like she was bragging when you were the one who asked.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.

Yeah. You are not impressed by education, experience, or knowledge. That's just pablum.

A misinterpreted wikipedia page and a stubborn refusal to learn is the true source of wisdom.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Another smack down on Sonak, thanks TSQ, that was beautiful. I can place a memory somewhere between 1 and three by the house we had lived in and the folks watching either a late Mercury or early Gemini launch. There's not much to recall except running around pretending to be on the rocket and the folks trying to keep me from jumping off stuff. Having lived there as late as three, there are a lot of memories, but I couldn't give any particular year to them.

 

[Leviathan]

So, I know there are smarter people on this board than myself. And, despite the fact that I know I carry a reputation which prevents many from taking me serious, I figured why not ask.

How does one know if they are repressing a memory, or simply don't have the memory they are looking for? Is there really a way to know the difference?

I know the answer but I don't remember it...

 

[thestrangequark]

So... yeah. I'm being told "I'm completely wrong," because I got a small irrelevant detail of mostly wording wrong while being correct on the main ideas.

You could have just acknowledged the mistake or moved on and it wouldn't have been a problem. Instead, you decided to be kind of smug and shift the focus of the discussion to another issue no one was debating with you. Plus, you questioned her sources and where she got her information, and then when she gave you her credentials (in addition to a link) you criticized her for listing her background like she was bragging when you were the one who asked.

Seriously, sonak, you asked and I answered. It's not like I said, "I have a degree in maths and ten years experience in chemical engineering, now listen to my opinions on psychology!" And if you're honest you'll have to agree that I've never used my credentials to back my claims on any topic where they weren't relevant (in fact, I don't know if I've ever used them before that way at all!). There aren't a lot of domains where my opinion is actually relevant, and I try really hard not to take residence upon Mount Stupid (I know, it's tempting!), but this is an area where I do know what I'm talking about. Sorry if the fact that my info didn't actually come Google University is a problem for you. And if the whole thing was a misunderstanding due to poor wording, then that's fine.

Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.

Yeah. You are not impressed by education, experience, or knowledge. That's just pablum.

I totally missed that juicy little tidbit.

 

[RoJoHen]

I have almost no memories of my life before the age of 9. I have memories of watching home movies from earlier years, but there's almost nothing that I remember directly from that time aside from a few random images.

 

[cooleddie74]

My earliest memory is from when I was about two and a half years old and my parents and I got a brand new kitten. That was sometime during the spring of 1977. Before that I just can't recall a thing.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I remember certain random and relatively dramatic events from when I was three or younger: getting baptized (significant because I was being handed to a complete stranger), getting left in the nursery at church one Sunday and crying up a storm, my first walk up the sidewalk by myself (though in sight of my father; my younger brother wasn't allowed to come along!), my dad being injured by a rock thrown from the lawn mower, the trip to the hospital for that and him subsequently getting an infected knee, moving to a new city, the moonwalk. For some reason, I remember getting changed once. I used to have a thing for pointing out water towers from the car, and I remember doing that. I remember arriving at the house of a girl I played with, though for some reason I can't remember her. The lawn mower incident is about the most complete narrative I remember.

Remembering the moonwalk is fairly interesting. My awareness of the moon was not unlike my awareness of water towers. I feel very fortunate, because my parents made a point of speaking to me and answering questions. My parents explained the significance of what we were listening to on the radio, because I asked, and that brought my awareness of the moon, so far as only one of the random objects I was aware of, to the fore. Because I thought it was interesting that I remembered that, years later when I was a teen I recounted it to my parents. They confirmed that we were indeed where I remembered, specifically at the family's mountain house with the extended family, listening to it on the radio. Although I didn't remember this detail, assuming I even knew it, they added that it was indeed Armstrong's walk. I feel confident believing that their view of it at the time as a significant event influenced my experience of it as something important. Of course, I don't remember very much of it at all. All I remember is the family listening to the radio in the mountains, having it explained to me that men were walking on the moon because I asked what was so important, and then that we were listening to people talking about that on the radio.

 

[Mr Awe]

My earliest memory is from when I was about two and a half years old and my parents and I got a brand new kitten. That was sometime during the spring of 1977. Before that I just can't recall a thing.

That's actually my earliest memory as well. Well, except it was our kitten, not yours!

I was 18 months old at the time and remember it very clearly to this day.

Mr Awe