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A Prostitute, A Doctor, A Preacher, A Cattle Rancher, And A Psychic Walk Onto A Set....

drew

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
Sound like the beginning of a joke? It is, and it's called Firefly.

Let's start with the Reavers. A group of Jeffrey Dahmers. GROUP of Dahmers. That kind of person isn't social, you'll never find a society of humans like that. They just don't work together to accomplish anything at all, let alone OPERATE A SPACE SHIP. That's a team effort, intellectual, coordinated, sophisticated, structured thing. Not a depraved killer's cup of tea by a long shot. Just imagine for a second what's happening on the bridge of a Reaver ship. Yeah, ridiculous if you think about it.

The idea that prostitution will be seen as classy in the future and a prostitute would travel with a spaceship on completely unrelated business is beyond absurd. What gave Whedon this idea? Looks like the direction humanity is headed in, right? No. It's impossible to accept that Earth's future generations' cultures will evolve in this direction, it isn't logical. Let's be frank though, the purpose was to have the pretty girl hang out around the ship. On bad eps, at least you'll have... that same exact girl to look at. I could get into TOS's fun sort of shamelessness of a similar variety, but this thread isn't about that, I won't argue for now why that's acceptable and this isn't. Figure it out.

The psychic power chick and her doctor brother don't fit here. Neither does the preacher for that matter. For one thing, the chick and her brother are douchebags, and the chick is the most random character of any show I can think of. They especially don't mix with the 2 main characters, which I'm moving onto now.

The "old cowboy" attitude of the captain and the moron (you know who) is out of place. Same for the Wild West look of a lot of the characters they meet. It's lame and unbelievable. I think Whedon took the word "frontier" from ST a bit too literally here. Those who fly spaceships are likely to be more scientific and less cattle-ranching/bull riding. What are these guys doing in space with a prostitute, a psychic, and a preacher? Randomly, of course, as the episodes that brought them together on the ship clearly indicate.

The bad episodes are less forgivable b/c there are so few episodes. The dialogue is good though. The plots are sometimes good. Some of the characters INDIVIDUALLY are good, but together they're just the butt of a joke and the locations are also badly suited for them.

I saw an old thread in which ppl were ranking this poorly conceived crap above TOS and TNG and I had to get this out. It isn't even sci-fi, really. Tell me what's so new about anything done here. No clever ideas, no imagination, no forward thought process, no new technology... no sci-fi. The premise hadn't been done before b/c no one would do it. It doesn't make any sense. The Reavers are an atrocious enemy and the show doesn't get much better than when they're around.
 
Firefly had its fair share of flaws. Unlike Star Trek, which is a Utopian-future setting; Firefly was specifically meant to take place in a gritty, worn-out cowboy/Western In Space setting.
But that said - that show was awesome!
 
I think the idea was that you needed a prostitute to bribe your way into ports.

I wasn't the biggest Firefly fan but I respected its ability to play on genre and I liked Malcolm's general attitude.
 
Meh, so many highly regarded shows are flawed for reasons. Doesn't mean they're fun and entertaining for so many others. Look at TOS for example, or the first season of TNG.

Actually, the first season of TNG is a great example. Talk about flawed and imperfect. But the show got so much better, and is regarded as one of the best SF shows ever. Who knows what Firefly could have become if it had a chance.
 
Sound like the beginning of a joke? It is, and it's called Firefly.

Let's start with the Reavers. A group of Jeffrey Dahmers. GROUP of Dahmers. That kind of person isn't social, you'll never find a society of humans like that. They just don't work together to accomplish anything at all, let alone OPERATE A SPACE SHIP. That's a team effort, intellectual, coordinated, sophisticated, structured thing. Not a depraved killer's cup of tea by a long shot. Just imagine for a second what's happening on the bridge of a Reaver ship. Yeah, ridiculous if you think about it.

The idea that prostitution will be seen as classy in the future and a prostitute would travel with a spaceship on completely unrelated business is beyond absurd. What gave Whedon this idea? Looks like the direction humanity is headed in, right? No. It's impossible to accept that Earth's future generations' cultures will evolve in this direction, it isn't logical. Let's be frank though, the purpose was to have the pretty girl hang out around the ship. On bad eps, at least you'll have... that same exact girl to look at. I could get into TOS's fun sort of shamelessness of a similar variety, but this thread isn't about that, I won't argue for now why that's acceptable and this isn't. Figure it out.

The psychic power chick and her doctor brother don't fit here. Neither does the preacher for that matter. For one thing, the chick and her brother are douchebags, and the chick is the most random character of any show I can think of. They especially don't mix with the 2 main characters, which I'm moving onto now.

The "old cowboy" attitude of the captain and the moron (you know who) is out of place. Same for the Wild West look of a lot of the characters they meet. It's lame and unbelievable. I think Whedon took the word "frontier" from ST a bit too literally here. Those who fly spaceships are likely to be more scientific and less cattle-ranching/bull riding. What are these guys doing in space with a prostitute, a psychic, and a preacher? Randomly, of course, as the episodes that brought them together on the ship clearly indicate.

The bad episodes are less forgivable b/c there are so few episodes. The dialogue is good though. The plots are sometimes good. Some of the characters INDIVIDUALLY are good, but together they're just the butt of a joke and the locations are also badly suited for them.

I saw an old thread in which ppl were ranking this poorly conceived crap above TOS and TNG and I had to get this out. It isn't even sci-fi, really. Tell me what's so new about anything done here. No clever ideas, no imagination, no forward thought process, no new technology... no sci-fi. The premise hadn't been done before b/c no one would do it. It doesn't make any sense. The Reavers are an atrocious enemy and the show doesn't get much better than when they're around.
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There was never a chance to really explore the Reavers as a society. I don't find them implausible because of their treatment of people outside their group. They may have treated each other rather nicely.
 
Or for all we know there could have been different types of Reavers, maybe there are more intelligent ones back on the ship and they just send out the really crazy ones to do all the nasty stuff for them. Or maybe there ships are all automated.
The whole idea behind the show was that it took all of the old western tropes, and put them in space.
Prostitutes tend to be a big part of Westerns, so I can see why they included Inara.
I love Firefly. I actually just got the big 500 page, leather bound Firefly: A Celebration book while it was on sale during Amazon's Prime Day. It's usually around $50, and I got it for $23.
 
The Reavers probably keep some skilled hostages alive to do their more complex tasks like repair the ships and make weapons and so forth. Eventually the people either become Reavers themselves from being exposed to all that horror like that one guy, they kill themselves, or they break down and just give up and get fed on once they've outlived their usefulness.
 
I always thought the zombies-on-steroids Reavers we saw in Serenity were just in berserker mode, blood crazed or something like that. Normaly, among themselves they may still be hyper violent psychos but more or less functioning ones, at least for a certain amount of time.
 
Not a fan, either. Whedon seemed to be so focused on subverting as many space opera cliches as he could* that he forgot to build a coherent universe, and then jammed in a deluge of cutesy gags and non-stop quipping in order to keep us from noticing or caring - except I did both.

(Yes, the heroes are rebels - but they've already lost! Yes, there's a big, bad empire - but maybe they're not entirely evil? Yes, there are tons of planets and moons to explore - but it's all one solar system! Yes, it's a space opera with monsters and psychic powers - but no actual aliens, so far! Yes, Earth exists in this reality... but we're in a different system somehow, with no inter-system travel?)
 
Whedon had big plans for the show, but Fox messed it up with out-of-order episodes and bad scheduling decisions. If it had been given a real chance it might have become even better. Or not. We'll never know.

Regardless, it's a pretty damn good 14 episodes.
 
(Yes, the heroes are rebels - but they've already lost! Yes, there's a big, bad empire - but maybe they're not entirely evil? Yes, there are tons of planets and moons to explore - but it's all one solar system! Yes, it's a space opera with monsters and psychic powers - but no actual aliens, so far! Yes, Earth exists in this reality... but we're in a different system somehow, with no inter-system travel?)
So what if they already lost the war? The fact that Malcolm and Zoe were on the losing side of the war defines their behavior now in the "peace" that followed. Most of your complaints aren't even criticisms, they're just matter of fact observations of key points of the show without any explanation of why they are bad.

Since when is nuance considered a negative trait in storytelling? Even in the most one-sided evil empire there can be good people, or even bad people who occasionally do the right thing for some reason. I have a feeling that if the Alliance were depicted as entirely made up of comically evil caricatures you'd be criticizing that instead.

It's actually a star cluster made up of five main sequence stars and several protostars and supermassive gas giants that are practically solar systems themselves, so there is some travel between stars. The terrestrial planets and moons of those stars and gas giants have been extensively terraformed, as explained in the show and movie. Yes, it's a cheat to have so many habitable (even with terraforming) worlds in close proximity, but it's hardly the most egregious scientific cheat in scifi, and it serves the story. BSG did the same thing with the Twelve Colonies.

They left Earth in generational ships that took centuries to reach their destination, also explained in the show and movie.

Lots of scifi deals with exploring the limits of human existence (including pseudoscience like psychics or experiments gone wrong resulting in "monsters") without involving aliens, so again, maybe that's a preference of yours to have aliens, but you haven't explained why it's a bad thing not to feature them and not just a storytelling choice?
 
I take the "rebels who lost the war" angle as being less of a take on Star Wars and more of an element of the on-the-nose Space Western setting. The Browncoats are basically ex-Confederates.
 
Most of your complaints aren't even criticisms, they're just matter of fact observations of key points of the show without any explanation of why they are bad.
Those weren't complaints; they were indeed observations of ways in which Whedon was subverting tropes on a macro level. And, generally speaking, I like subverted tropes, but I hold to my previously stated opinion that 1) the subverted-tropes-filled universe didn't cohere and 2) the dialogue was too twee and gimmicky. I watched four or five eps (I forget) and the movie, and still didn't much like the world or the characters, so I gave up. Not saying fans of the series are wrong for liking it; it just didn't work for me.

I do, however, agree with drew the Reavers are problematic, story-wise. Yes, in the space opera genre, nearly anything can be handwaved or explained away (though it bears noting that the above fan/head canons justifying their persistence are particularly threadbare). But when so much narrative emphasis is placed upon the perpetually scrounging and struggling effort to keep Serenity flying, it just isn't helpful to have a race/tribe/whatever of apparently mindless beserkers flying around. (The Reavers would be more appropriate to, say, the Delta Quadrant of Voyager, in a fictional universe in which space travel is shown to often be very much automated, clean, and easy.)
 
Let's start with the Reavers. A group of Jeffrey Dahmers. GROUP of Dahmers. That kind of person isn't social, you'll never find a society of humans like that. They just don't work together to accomplish anything at all, let alone OPERATE A SPACE SHIP. That's a team effort, intellectual, coordinated, sophisticated, structured thing. Not a depraved killer's cup of tea by a long shot. Just imagine for a second what's happening on the bridge of a Reaver ship. Yeah, ridiculous if you think about it.
No more ridiculous than Klingons-- or any society that has both soldiers and technicians.

The idea that prostitution will be seen as classy in the future and a prostitute would travel with a spaceship on completely unrelated business is beyond absurd.
On the contrary, any civilized person would hope for a society where sexuality is treated as a normal part of life and not suppressed by religious ideology. Mal was shown as having an old-fashioned attitude toward sexuality, but that was based on jealousy and insecurity-- as are all sexual taboos.

What gave Whedon this idea? Looks like the direction humanity is headed in, right? No.
Just because you happen to be living in a particularly conservative period doesn't mean that things won't change. The long-term trend has been toward greater liberalism for centuries.

The psychic power chick and her doctor brother don't fit here. Neither does the preacher for that matter.
They all fit, because they're all outcasts and fugitives. The format of the show was designed to throw these disparate types together.

The "old cowboy" attitude of the captain and the moron (you know who) is out of place. Same for the Wild West look of a lot of the characters they meet. It's lame and unbelievable. I think Whedon took the word "frontier" from ST a bit too literally here.
All frontiers have much in common-- the rest is literary license.

Those who fly spaceships are likely to be more scientific and less cattle-ranching/bull riding.
You mean like people who drive high-tech cars or fly private airplanes or own houseboats? People are people, in any century.

I take the "rebels who lost the war" angle as being less of a take on Star Wars and more of an element of the on-the-nose Space Western setting. The Browncoats are basically ex-Confederates.
More like if the American Revolution were lost-- the Serenity crew were not bad guys. At least I hope Whedon didn't have that in mind.
 
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