A missed opportunity: Khan vs. Spock

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Charles Phipps, May 23, 2022.

  1. publiusr

    publiusr Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Both had what “five times” human strength?
    David Gaultreaux said he liked the idea of strength without size/bulk once…
     
  2. Yistaan

    Yistaan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock's not going to waste time arguing with Khan once he sees the threat Khan presents. A cut scene from 'Into Darkness' showed that Ambassador Spock told Kelvin Spock that they defeated Khan by whacking him with a heavy tool (referencing Space Seed). Kelvin Spock then proceeded to do that to Kelvin Khan afterwards. Spock himself probably would think it illogical to do anything other than that. How one would logically assume Spock would fight Khan is exactly what we got.
     
  3. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The "well I took a hammer..." scene was from the gag reel, it was Nimoy having a laugh and never intended to be in the movie.
     
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  4. Yistaan

    Yistaan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even so, presumably offscreen Ambassador Spock did indeed say something similar to Kelvin Spock, as this was indeed how Khan was defeated in Space Seed. Recounting the Battle of the Mutara Nebula would make no sense and be irrelevant to Kelvin Spock. Unless Ambassador Spock reminded him about prefix codes which may have been useful against the USS Vengeance.
     
  5. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, Spock's lesson from his elder self was to "use what he wanted against him" (Kirk's words later describing Spock's use of the torpedoes as a trap), which is exactly what happened in Wrath of Khan. Khan was so obsessed with killing Kirk he fell into his trap in the Mutara Nebula and was defeated.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Likely not on record.
     
  7. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah the Vengeance was "an unregistered Federation vessel" according to Uhura, and came up as "Unknown Vessel" on Enterprise's display graphics.
     
  8. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The idea of Khan and Spock sparring on a more intellectual level reminds me of Khan's line to Kirk in Space Seed: "You are an excellent tactician, Captain. You let your second in command attack while you sit and watch for weakness."

    Kor
     
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  9. Captain Dove

    Captain Dove Ensign Red Shirt

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    Are Khan and Spock supposed to be the same strength level?
     
  10. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

    If not identical, then close enough to make them rather evenly matched.
     
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  11. Captain Dove

    Captain Dove Ensign Red Shirt

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    I've often wondered this.

    So if a Vulcan ship had found the Bontany Bay, they'd basically no-sell the augments without much fuss?
     
  12. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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  13. Captain Dove

    Captain Dove Ensign Red Shirt

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    I mean, they (the hypothetical Vulcans) would easily handle Khan and his lot.
     
  14. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's not always easy to compare brute strength of different humanoid-ish species.
    According to Khan in Space Seed, he had five times Kirk's strength.

    For comparison with Vulcans, per DS9 Take Me Out To The Holosuite, "A Vulcan has three times the strength of a human." Additionally, "they're faster, too." But that DS9 episode also indicated that Vulcans are not stronger or faster than our Klingon buddy Worf (or genetically-enhanced Bashir!). Yet in TSFS we saw an uninhibited and pain-tormented Vulcan, whose mind was a void, throw a Klingon around like a rag doll.

    In ENT, two human augments took on a Klingon crew and won, massacring everybody. I can't remember if they were basically the same as Khan, or if Arik Soong had done additional tinkering on their DNA.

    In terms of raw physical strength, it may go in this order: human augments, Klingons (on a good day), Vulcans, baseline humans. Vulcans have the advantage of their highly-developed intellect and rigorous logic, which may have given a Vulcan crew the edge if they had discovered S.S. Botany Bay.

    Kor
     
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  15. Serveaux

    Serveaux Mediocre Old White Man Premium Member

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    Spock was doing a terrible job as captain until Kirk pushed him out. Hard pass.
     
  16. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was his first day!
     
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  17. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We must regather with the fleet! :thumbdown:
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And emotionally compromised to boot.
     
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  19. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Also following the orders he was given, which would be a very Spock thing to do throughout much of the original TV series.

    Star Trek 2009 (chakoteya.net)

    In the Prime timeline, Spock learning to improvise or speak ambiguously only came after long exposure to Kirk's methods. I'm not sure anything substantially different should have been expected from this Spock at this time (whether compromised or no.)
     
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