A missed opportunity: Khan vs. Spock

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Charles Phipps, May 23, 2022.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I never thought of this until Into Darkness but now can't help but wish it was the case. Basically, it occurs to me that as much as Khan and Kirk are archenemies, a fight both mental and physical between Spock vs. Khan was something that would have been interesting to see. We got a hint of it in Into Darkness and that got my mind working that Spock really is the ultimate rebuttal to Augmented Supermen like him.

    Spock is a physical and mental powerhouse equal to or superior to Khan, but Spock chooses to serve as the Number Two to Captain Kirk because leadership is not determined by either his raw power or pure knowledge. He also doesn't feel diminished by not being a leader and captain but happily works in a subordinate role.

    Khan would just not get that and it's a shame we never saw them talk about it.
     
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  2. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Good point. It's kind of like how Lex Luthor can never understand how power like Superman's can subordinate itself to others, or to the greater good -- how it can possibly be used for anything other than exploitation, control, and personal gain.
     
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  3. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    From what I'd seen from the 3 movies, I thought Spock would've been a better Captain than Pine-Kirk. Good point tho.
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is the sign of a true leader.
     
  5. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I mean, he undoubtedly would have been but losing your planet will mess you up.
     
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  6. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    LOL! Yes. He loved his mother, she was the center of his human soul until Uhura. Would Khan have used her as a way of mentally destabilizing Spock?
     
  7. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The issue with Khan was that as well as everything else being ramped up, his ambition was as well. He definitely wouldn't comprehend Spock's willing subservience.

    I loved the first confrontation between Khan and Spock in ID, the way they just talked through what would happen without acting it out. Khan believed the hype about Vulcans "you can't even break a rule, how would you be expected to break bone?" and that was his undoing. Spock lied to him (sort of, his wording was "the torpedoes are yours") and he fell for it. Then later, Khan learned that Spock is very willing to break bone when he snapped his arm.

    I feel like a sequel centering around a Khan and Spock battle of wits could be awesome. Khan went back into stasis thinking Spock had killed his people.
     
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  8. somebuddyX

    somebuddyX Commodore Commodore

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    Sometimes I think Chekov might have been a better captain than Pine tree. I like Pine's Kirk but it always seemed to me he'd have better off being some Starfleet operative who can go in and solve some mission and wreck shop without regard.
     
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  9. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    **watches all the critics bury their "Cadet to Captain in five minutes!!!" card & with a flourish play the "Oh, good -- he's seventeen" card**

    I mean: everyone knows that's exactly what would happen, right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  10. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock had a quite radical approach of treating an insubordinate on his Enterprise; Pine-Kirk was out of line to talk to the CO in that manner on the bridge in the first movie concerning the rogue Romulan. He didn't order Pine-Kirk to the brig but (LOL) he necked pinched him and ejected him off of the Enterprise entirely. And no one questioned it??? I guess everyone on the bridge thought it was logical to handle an officer who was a trespasser. LOL!!! I really liked this Spock.
     
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  11. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    He had just lost his mother and entire planet. "I am emotionally compromised" in the words of his elder self.

    Amusingly in a New Frontier book released years prior, something very similar happens and they say it's within the commander's right to treat stowaways thusly.
     
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  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which misses the complete point of his character growth in three movies, but sure, why not? Cast him as Starfleet's Bond. :rolleyes:
    Indeed, but apparently every decision made was obviously purely logical or something...
     
  13. somebuddyX

    somebuddyX Commodore Commodore

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    I absolutely think he'd have been great as Starfleet's Bond and Spock should have been Captain. I know Pine Tree cared about his crew but he was ready to jump ship after four years in space. He couldn't even really be bothered on the cat planet in Beyond and kinda half-assed everything. He looked like the guy who wanted to be solving someone else's problems and I think he would have been great as that.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I must have watched a completely different movie than you.

    He was hitting a crisis because he outlived his dad, and was eager to go back to space by the end of the adventure.

    Starfleet's Bond? No thanks. Chris Pine is awesome as Kirk.
     
  15. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    LMAO!!!

    My brother got me into the voyages of Mackenzie Calhoun and it was a fun read; I loved the crew ended up on a Galaxy Class vessel as the stories got more boldly. Peter David did an incredible job with that corner of the novel Trek world.

    It was very disappointed for Pine-Kirk to reveal he wanted to quit since I last saw him; he truly earned his stripes to command the Enterprise in "Into Darkness". I hoped "Beyond" would've made him a ships strategist in battle sequences as Captain on the Enterprise but the lame plot needed the ship to be... SHREDDED. I agree with what you've mention of Pine-Kirk being some sort of Starfleet's Bond, getting into a lot of hot water and barely escaping, shacking up with tons of party gals then getting assigned to capture Bad guys was his Modus Operandi.

    I don't watch these things for substance, I watch them for rollercoaster ride fun and Pine-Kirk fits those sets of lampoon rules, but I would prefer Spock as Captain. Seems to me he's done the right thing when he was at the helm, I think Abrams really dug his version of Spock and so did I.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  16. somebuddyX

    somebuddyX Commodore Commodore

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    Pine-Kirk seems like an adrenalin junkie who got guilted into Starfleet because of the ghost of one dead guy and stayed because of the ghost of another. Then he comes down and wakes up to the reality that the minutiae of Starfleet is tough and he's not cut out for it and should quit. But luckily danger is afoot and he goes on another adventure that gets his ship blown up, salvages another, beats the bad guy and comes away with his veins pumping with that good shit that'll last another four or so years.
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If that's all you took away from the film then more power to you.

    Kirk is more self-reflective than that but OK. Apparently it's just a roller coaster ride and he's just in it for the thrills...:shrug:
     
  18. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe if that had happened, Spock screaming "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" would have felt earned in the film.
     
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  19. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Pine-Kirk should've been left dead in the movie, so that rage of emotion coming from Spock would've had some weight to it. Abrams set up something where Spock could go in some interesting directions, rebuild Vulcan, and continue his love and affection for Uhura; Khan could have been a foil for those goals.
     
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  20. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If Kirk remained dead for the movie it could have been a great hook for the third one, which could have begun with his Khan blood resurrection and tapped into that homicidal turn they teased at the end of Into Darkness (moreso in a deleted scene where Kirk and that little girl share a strange knowing look) and the third film could have ended with an epic Kirk vs Spock battle, where Spock (now fully aware of the meaning of friendship) tries to bring Kirk back to sanity.