A Lit-verse based TOS chronology
- Thread starter ryan123450
- Start date
Ya, I would assume the same thing....but I haven't read beyond Kobayashi Maru yet.....so my point in asking was if the move of "These Are the Voyages" was universal within the treklit. I had guessed it was, and I am looking forward to reading the rest of the Ent novels (although Kobayashi Maru is a bit disappointing).
I'm pretty interested in the timelining issues, and wasn't sure how accepted the move of the last episode of Enterprise was.
I'm pretty interested in the timelining issues, and wasn't sure how accepted the move of the last episode of Enterprise was.
Aha, okay. Yep, it was!
Overall I think everything outside TOS has been all one big continuity since the DS9 Relaunch (though I'm probably forgetting some exceptions). And obviously some TOS too, just not all of it.
Last edited:
There have been some exceptions, like the Shatnerverse and the Crucible trilogy (which extended into the 24th century, so it wasn't just TOS), and the one-off novel that tied into Star Trek Online when it was launched. And Starfleet Year One, retroactively, since it was contradicted by ENT. And Strange New Worlds, as a rule, though a few of its stories have used novel-continuity elements.
I've been slowly building my own chronology since last fall, when I decided to use the 50th anniversary as an excuse to rewatch all the episodes and movies, and then decided to reread all my comics and novels while I was at it. I just finished rereading The Vulcan Academy Murders this weekend, and I'm trying to decide where to place it. In my mind, it was firmly in the late-season-three-to-pre-TAS period due to Sarek's early reference to "Amok Time" having taken place "nearly two years" prior. (I'm sidestepping the issue of whether this is Federation standard years or Vulcan years.)
Then I got to the parts with M'Benga (especially when McCoy basically asks him to serve aboard the Enterprise when he finishes his work on Vulcan in a month), which would seem to place it before "A Private Little War." Voyages of Imagination places it between "Journey to Babel" and "A Private Little War." I see the Litverse reading guide has it between those episodes too, although the earlier placement of "Journey" in that chronology would make that fit a little easier.
Still, it feels to me like more than a few weeks has passed since "Journey to Babel." Given my preference for production date ordering of TOS, I hate to squeeze this novel between those two episodes like Voyages of Imagination does. I'm tempted to lean more toward the "Amok Time" reference and discount McCoy's dialogue with M'Benga, and place the story between "The Savage Curtain" and "All Our Yesterdays." Given that Kirk compares Spock's admiration for Surak to his own admiration for Abraham Lincoln at one point in the novel, I like the idea that this might have been fresh in his mind after the encounter with the Excalbians. There doesn't seem to be much reason for him to bring it up otherwise.
I'm guessing I might be in the minority placing the novel at that point in the timeline, but I'm curious if any other chronologists have given serious consideration to a "later" date for The Vulcan Academy Murders? I acknowledge there may also be other external factors (references in other stories) that may preclude the later placement of which I'm unaware, so please feel free to enlighten me if you're aware of such.
Then I got to the parts with M'Benga (especially when McCoy basically asks him to serve aboard the Enterprise when he finishes his work on Vulcan in a month), which would seem to place it before "A Private Little War." Voyages of Imagination places it between "Journey to Babel" and "A Private Little War." I see the Litverse reading guide has it between those episodes too, although the earlier placement of "Journey" in that chronology would make that fit a little easier.
Still, it feels to me like more than a few weeks has passed since "Journey to Babel." Given my preference for production date ordering of TOS, I hate to squeeze this novel between those two episodes like Voyages of Imagination does. I'm tempted to lean more toward the "Amok Time" reference and discount McCoy's dialogue with M'Benga, and place the story between "The Savage Curtain" and "All Our Yesterdays." Given that Kirk compares Spock's admiration for Surak to his own admiration for Abraham Lincoln at one point in the novel, I like the idea that this might have been fresh in his mind after the encounter with the Excalbians. There doesn't seem to be much reason for him to bring it up otherwise.
I'm guessing I might be in the minority placing the novel at that point in the timeline, but I'm curious if any other chronologists have given serious consideration to a "later" date for The Vulcan Academy Murders? I acknowledge there may also be other external factors (references in other stories) that may preclude the later placement of which I'm unaware, so please feel free to enlighten me if you're aware of such.
As far as I'm concerned, The Vulcan Academy Murders and The IDIC Epidemic are among those books whose chronological assumptions make them impossible to reconcile with Trek episode order as it's generally accepted today. Like how Web of the Romulans is supposedly immediately after "Tomorrow is Yesterday" even though Chekov is aboard and the Romulans use the kind of untrackable cloaking device they didn't develop until "The Enterprise Incident." Or, similarly, how Double, Double is supposedly immediately after "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" even though Chekov's presence and other references put it in the third season or after. I decided long ago that sometimes a book just doesn't fit and needs to be treated as its own alternative take on things.
Have fun with your timeline! This is one that timeliners debated on and off for years and ultimately the placement of M'Benga, I think, was the primary factor in where it was put. With many of the earlier novels there are going to be some problems, it is a matter of what "fits" best for you.
I've considered this question alot. Most of my thoughts have been worked threw in this thread. Ultimately I will agree that this novel and it's sequel have no obvious inarguable placement. It's really going to have to be up to each person to make their own judgement, which will focus on some points of evidence at the expense of others. As Garth Rockett said I placed it at a certain point on the Litverse Reading Guide, but it could have went elsewhere as well if I had changed my interpretation of the points of data.
I just reread the first chapter of Vulcan Academy Murders, and oof, it's awkward if you assume production order equals chronology. Do we think Lorrah was assuming airdate order for TOS?
Even that doesn't work, since it puts "Journey to Babel" and "A Private Little War" only 9 episodes apart, not several years. Heck, maybe she was thinking of James Blish's order, where they were separated by six volumes and three years of real-world time.
Or maybe she wasn't trying to fit any order at all. Honestly, I think a lot of the early novelists treated ST more like a timeless myth than something that could have its dates firmly pinned down like events in a history text. TOS itself was intentionally designed to be vague about its chronology, and a lot of TV shows back then were equally vague about their time frames. And when most people saw ST through constantly looping syndicated reruns on TV, you might experience the episodes in a fairly random order, depending on when and where you watched. Plus there were so many different episode orders to choose from -- airdate order, production order, stardate order, Blish order -- that a lot of people may not have felt any need to adhere to a single order at all.
So I think some Trek authors, especially back in the days before there was an official Chronology and dates were being given onscreen, just didn't worry about chronology and let the passage of time be whatever their stories needed it to be. That's why there are some early books that are set pre-TMP yet explicitly several years after later TOS episodes. Today we justify that by assuming a "second 5-year mission" before TMP, but I doubt the authors at the time thought of it that way; they just took a flexible approach to chronology, as was not uncommon for fiction.
Thanks. As @Christopher indicated, some of the novels and comics I'm reading through (including this one) don't really fit well with a consistent timeline. However, I'm approaching this as just trying to see where each of these stories for other media fit best with my own TV/movie chronology (which is largely consistent with the Okudas' assumptions); it's not really meant to represent any sort of consistent history of events. It's more just a fun mental exercise, and an excuse to revisit all this stuff!
I think I'm just going to go with my gut and place it after "The Savage Curtain." I don't have The IDIC Epidemic, but maybe I'll look for that one and revisit my placement of The Vulcan Academy Murders at that point. Thanks for all the input!
Placing Spirit Walk I & II....so I know these are already solidly placed in Voyages of Imagination and really, the only references throughout both novels are the Tom and Torres baby references, all of them pointing to their child being 6 months old. So the story is 6 months after "End Game".
But.....
I'm kinda interested in "trying" to nail them down a little more based on some of the internal references and there are a couple of annoying circles of vagueness, but I thought I would throw this out to a few of the other timeline minded folks....
So, on page 8 of Enemy of My Enemy and elsewhere in the novel we learn that Chakotay's Maquis mission to the Badlands was basically set up by the Changeling at the time, and he had departed the Tevlik moon before the events of "Caretaker".... In or around this time period the Great Link had expelled the Changeling and he had taken the form of Ellis....
Well....I know it is only a computer estimate, but on page 136 the computer estimates that Ellis's real body had been in stasis for 6 years, 7 months, and two days. Well that amount of time is supposed to bookend right before Voyager in the Delta Quadrant and the period of time after "End Game" , leading up to and including Spirit Walk. By my estimation "Caretaker" took place in late May or June of 2371.....6 years, 7 months later would take us to basically around the time Voyager gets home....
Just typing "out loud" here....I was hoping that the 6 year 7 month time period wrapped around the time of Voyager in the Delta Quadrant nicely, but I don't think it can include the 6 months after "End Game"....just wondering if anyone else has tried to do the math on this.
The only other reference I jotted down was that the very end of the book has things wrapping up on a Thursday. For the events of Spirit Walk to unfold, that Thursday would have to be either June 22nd or the 29th, or one of the first ones of July.
Unless someone else pulled a nugget from the story, I don't think there is enough for anything more specific. Do people have it pegged for June?
But.....
I'm kinda interested in "trying" to nail them down a little more based on some of the internal references and there are a couple of annoying circles of vagueness, but I thought I would throw this out to a few of the other timeline minded folks....
So, on page 8 of Enemy of My Enemy and elsewhere in the novel we learn that Chakotay's Maquis mission to the Badlands was basically set up by the Changeling at the time, and he had departed the Tevlik moon before the events of "Caretaker".... In or around this time period the Great Link had expelled the Changeling and he had taken the form of Ellis....
Well....I know it is only a computer estimate, but on page 136 the computer estimates that Ellis's real body had been in stasis for 6 years, 7 months, and two days. Well that amount of time is supposed to bookend right before Voyager in the Delta Quadrant and the period of time after "End Game" , leading up to and including Spirit Walk. By my estimation "Caretaker" took place in late May or June of 2371.....6 years, 7 months later would take us to basically around the time Voyager gets home....
Just typing "out loud" here....I was hoping that the 6 year 7 month time period wrapped around the time of Voyager in the Delta Quadrant nicely, but I don't think it can include the 6 months after "End Game"....just wondering if anyone else has tried to do the math on this.
The only other reference I jotted down was that the very end of the book has things wrapping up on a Thursday. For the events of Spirit Walk to unfold, that Thursday would have to be either June 22nd or the 29th, or one of the first ones of July.
Unless someone else pulled a nugget from the story, I don't think there is enough for anything more specific. Do people have it pegged for June?
Just finished KRAD's A Gutted World. Very good. I'm just curious about the demarcation point, or where other chronology minded folks may have placed when events diverge? I don't think the story is 100% clear, but the timelines "split" at some point prior to the UFP coming to Bajor. The back story involved here has the Cardassians knowing that Bajor's mining and production capacity is declining, but at some point prior to "Emissary" the wormhole was exploited by the Cardassians. It is then used by the Dominion to take out the powers in the Alpha Quadrant. Just wondering if others have might have pegged a more specific placement for when the differing timelines split.
Haven't read A Gutted World, @Jbarney but with regard to Spirit Walk, great job noticing the inconsistancy with the length of Ellis's stasis. I seem to remember noticing that that was off when I read it as well, but that has been many years. I don't really see any way around having to ignore that exact bit of data.
If it had been too long a span instead of too short, perhaps it would have shed light on the 'Voyager celebrating First Contact Day just before their return home' issue. I know Memory Alpha takes the approach that Voyager didn't return home until April or May of 2378. And the Litverse is pretty well locked in to the understanding that Endgame's stardate of 54973 means they returned home in Dec '77.
If anything, this data from Spirit Walk could imply that Voyager returned home in April '77 and that Spit Walk takes place in the last months of '77. But I don't think we can justify making major changes to the commonly accepted understanding of this era. And we would have to ignore the Litverse accepted convention that 1000 Stardates equal 1 year, Jan to Dec.
If it had been too long a span instead of too short, perhaps it would have shed light on the 'Voyager celebrating First Contact Day just before their return home' issue. I know Memory Alpha takes the approach that Voyager didn't return home until April or May of 2378. And the Litverse is pretty well locked in to the understanding that Endgame's stardate of 54973 means they returned home in Dec '77.
If anything, this data from Spirit Walk could imply that Voyager returned home in April '77 and that Spit Walk takes place in the last months of '77. But I don't think we can justify making major changes to the commonly accepted understanding of this era. And we would have to ignore the Litverse accepted convention that 1000 Stardates equal 1 year, Jan to Dec.
Ya, in pointing out the data it wasn't my intention to suggest tweeking any of the departure/arrival dates of Voyager, I was just trying to find a way to use that length of time that was mentioned in the text. Was just trying to use to nail down the Spirit Walk placement. It was mentioned, and all we can do is work with what is given to us.
Thanks for responding.
Thanks for responding.
@Jbarney, been going threw some "old notes" and found a question I didn't figure out a concrete answer to. @Christopher may have some thoughts on this. Wondering if Crisis on Centuarus can fit well with The Better Man. I've not read either personally, but both are on my Litverse connected timeline. The Better Man has Joanna McCoy and her father estranged when she is 18, near the end of the 5YM. Crisis on Centaurus has her and her father reconciled when she's 21, and seems to be set post TMP going by it's stardate. But the Voyages of the Imagination timeline sets the 18 year old Joanna McCoy portion in 2265 and Crisis on Centaurus in 2269. Wouldn't it make more sense for Crisis on Centaurus to be post TMP and that portion of The Better Man to be near the end of the 5YM like it says in the novel?
Crisis isn't post-TMP; the characters have their TOS-era ranks, and Chekov is navigator.
SoI guess the two can't be reconciled perfectly as is, and the way VotI changed things was as good a solution as any.
I had the impression that CoC and TBM differed on which of Joanna's parents got custody.
I'm kind of perplexed how you could make an argument that Bones got custody. What, was Joanna just off-camera for the entirety of TOS?
Similar threads
