A Lit-verse based TOS chronology

[ryan123450]

My own chronology puts "Turnabout Intruder" in May. The historian's note in Second Nature only says it takes place "a couple of months" after TI, and while "a couple" literally means "two," it's often used less precisely, so I think there's some flexibility in interpretation there.

I could see pushing TI into May (I currently have it at the beginning of June.) But I don't see any reason to currently. I have TAS starting in mid October with plenty of room for these "in-between" novels, including, like Leto II, Prime Directive.

As for "Yesteryear," it's actually third in production order, but there's no single unambiguous order for TAS. I tend to go with production order.

I actually was never aware til now that TAS had a different production order than the release order. Glancing at Memory Alpha, I notice the strange fact that their wasn't an episode production coded as number 12.

I make adjustments where it seems reasonable for various reasons (for instance, I follow "Beyond the Farthest Star," set on the edge of the galaxy, with "One of Our Planets is Missing," set on the far fringes of the UFP, since it makes the most sense in terms of travel time).

I love talking about this stuff with you because you point out little tidbits like this that I had never thought of.

My placement of "Yesteryear" in FH was based on the chronological assumptions I made at the time, and I think I've rearranged some things since then in response to Seekers, so I've had to put Yy a bit out of order.

I'm probably missing something but is there any reason why TAS needs to start any sooner than it would by leaving YY in its natural order? So October or September at the earliest.

I think that first "after" was supposed to be "before?" I just couldn't figure out a way to put it after Second Nature and still be before TAS.

Yes I got my afters and befores mixed up, which was a dumb error to make in this conversation. As far as TFotU goes though, since I have more time before TAS, I can easily squeeze it in.

Huh? What references are you talking about? I might have referenced Troublesome Minds or A Choice of Catastrophes, though I don't recall doing so. But I definitely didn't reference either of the others.

Well not the stories themselves but I noted a character from both Troublesome Minds and A Choice of Catastrophes that were also in TFotU. And I shouldn't have placed A Crisis of Consciousness on the same level, but as a story which was linked by virtue of being linked to Troublesome Minds. Although as I will discuss below, it appears I may have to disregard any link there.

As far as the Starfleet Academy comic, there was one passage in the novel which talked about Kirk's time at the Academy, which at the time I read it I thought was an allusion to Kirk's characterization in that comic. But you may have instead been drawing on some line from TOS which I have forgotten. I'd have to search back into the book to find the specifics.

It's mentioned in Christopher's acknowledgements section at the very end of The Face of the Unknown -- Lieutenant Lou Prescott from Troublesome Minds is still only an ensign in Face, presumably gaining a promotion over the intervening year or thereabouts.

Good point. So if Troublesome Minds is now pretty much locked in as being post TAS, that eliminates any possibility of it being before CoC (since it is set before Who Mourns for Adonias?) Dave Galanter suggested a way to make it work upthread, but it just can't work now. Unless Lt Prescott gets demoted to Ensign for some reason between TM and TFotU. But TM works much better as late 5YM anyway. All things considered, I think I'll have to ignore the vague reference to TM in CoC since it only works if TM takes place first.

Yeah, this is something that happens from time to time, even today -- for instance, The Latter Fire possesses an opening stardate (5371.3) that falls well into the run of TAS, despite being set immediately beforehand. It's much more consistent than it used to be in decades past, but occasionally a gaffe still slips through.

Thats fine if ACoC really is supposed to be after Return to Tommorrow. Memory Beta didn't give any reason, and I've not read it, so I was just wondering if that was a mistake on Memory Beta's part.

 

[Christopher]

I'm probably missing something but is there any reason why TAS needs to start any sooner than it would by leaving YY in its natural order? So October or September at the earliest.

As I said, my preference is to default to putting novels/stories after TAS, so I want it to be as early as feasible. There's little enough time left in the 5YM as it is.

As far as the Starfleet Academy comic, there was one passage in the novel which talked about Kirk's time at the Academy, which at the time I read it I thought was an allusion to Kirk's characterization in that comic. But you may have instead been drawing on some line from TOS which I have forgotten. I'd have to search back into the book to find the specifics.

I was building purely on what TOS and the movies established about Kirk in the Academy.

 

[ryan123450]

As I said, my preference is to default to putting novels/stories after TAS, so I want it to be as early as feasible. There's little enough time left in the 5YM as it is.

Well we each have our personal preferences.

I was building purely on what TOS and the movies established about Kirk in the Academy.

Ok my mistake. I'll disregard that idea.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I actually was never aware til now that TAS had a different production order than the release order. Glancing at Memory Alpha, I notice the strange fact that their wasn't an episode production coded as number 12.

That's likely because there was some problem or another with the originally-planned episode 12. Rather than reassign the production numbers of all the following episodes, they just left a gap.

I'm currently working on an article about Batman: The Animated Series, and they had a similar thing happen during their production cycle. One episode had story problems and was animated very off-model by a new studio, so they ended up axing the episode rather than try to salvage it. A later-produced episode ended up taking the now-open production number, so an episode that they produced somewhere around #50 out of 65 ending up being production #16.

 

[Leto_II]

As I said, my preference is to default to putting novels/stories after TAS, so I want it to be as early as feasible. There's little enough time left in the 5YM as it is.

Was just re-reading both DC Comics Modala Imperative miniseries from the early '90s (TOS and TNG), and if you can believe it, there were actually discussions between DC and Paramount concerning the possibility of curtailing all future storytelling set during the 5YM timeframe, due to the feeling that the period was "pretty well mined," in the words of former editor Robert Greenberger (the following scans are taken from TOS Modala issues #2 and #4, respectively):

Kinda mindblowing to think that the official Powers-That-Were were actually even discussing this course of action at one point, even though nothing ultimately came of it in the end. Compare this to today, where the 5YM timeframe is basically an ever-expanding storytelling TARDIS, with no limits placed on the number of tales that can theoretically exist there, commercially-speaking.

 

[Dayton Ward]

It's good to know that Bob finally saw the light. I'd have hated to cut him out of my life.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

What I find the most bizarre is Richard Arnold advocating the theory that all the adventures seen in TOS took place over a year and a half. I guess that's working from the assumption that the Enterprise's adventures were occurring literally weekly?

 

[F. King Daniel]

"Why does everything weird always happen to us on a Thursday?"

 

[Christopher]

Kinda mindblowing to think that the official Powers-That-Were were actually even discussing this course of action at one point, even though nothing ultimately came of it in the end.

I think you're reading too much into that. If you look closely, Bob Greenberger was talking solely about his own opinion that the 5YM was "pretty well mined," which was why he preferred to focus the TOS comic he edited on movie-era content. As Bob said, Richard Arnold disagreed and thought there was plenty of room left in the 5YM. And indeed, at the time, the comic told strictly movie-era stories (with rare flashback issues), whereas the novels told primarly 5YM stories with the occasional dip into the movie era. So it was never a franchise-wide policy, just Bob's own preference. Note that, while Bob's first 2-3 successors as editor continued his movie-era policy, once Margaret Clark took over, she shifted the focus of the TOS comic more and more toward pilot-era and 5YM-era stories until it ended up becoming exclusively 5YM-based.

For my own part, I agree with Bob. Arnold said he'd estimated the whole of TOS took only a year and a half, but it would be absurd to expect every adventure to pick up immediately after the last one. It's a big galaxy, and travel time from one star system to another would generally be on the order of weeks. There would need to be time between missions for ship repairs and the healing of injuries. There were a number of missions mentioned as occurring between episodes, like the delivery to Makus II several days after "The Galileo Seven," the delivery of supplies to Beta VI eight days after "The Squire of Gothos," the maintenance stopover at Cygnet XIV just before "Tomorrow is Yesterday," the two weeks spent ferrying delegates before "Journey to Babel" began, and so on. And naturally, not every mission would be some exciting life-or-death adventure. Many would be routine and uneventful and not worth depicting. All those factors would fill out the remaining time pretty well.

 

[Dayton Ward]

A while back, I came to appreciate that the 5YM is just a setting, like Riverdale High or Springfield, or Gotham or Metropolis. It's a point of departure for storytelling, and if we're being honest then the actual period of time was filled to realistic levels decades ago. I quit worrying so much about how to make it all fit, because it's not possible without making contortions or rationalizations or interpretations, or deciding which stories stay and which go, and all of that involves reaching into subjective territory that'll never make everyone happy.

Besides, I still want to write stories with those characters at that point in their lives, so that's what I'm gonna do.

 

[Garth Rockett]

For my own part, I agree with Bob.

So do I. While I've no objections to additional 5YM stories, as I love the era also, at some point you can't possibly fit them all into a five year period. Also, more importantly to my mind, there are so many years of adventures with the original crew outside of the 5YM that are largely unchronicled, relatively speaking. In comparison, we've barely scratched the surface on the post-TMP 5YM, and there is still room for plenty of adventures in the post-TFF, pre-TUC era. As a child of the movie era, I'd like to see those periods explored a little more in both novels and comics.

 

[Nyotarules]

Any writers prepared to write a pre TUC or post TFF story where Uhura, Scotty and Chekov's careers are NOT stagnant around the great Kirk???

 

[Idran]

Any writers prepared to write a pre TUC or post TFF story where Uhura, Scotty and Chekov's careers are NOT stagnant around the great Kirk???

Like Forged in Fire?

 

[Dayton Ward]

Any writers prepared to write a pre TUC or post TFF story where Uhura, Scotty and Chekov's careers are NOT stagnant around the great Kirk???

Sure, if I had a story that grabbed me enough. Don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of the movie era, too, but TOS is and always will be "my" true Trek love.

 

[Nyotarules]

Like Forged in Fire?

yeah something like that, Uhura in Federation intelligence or something, working for Captain Kirk till you retire seems pathetic for senior officers in a military organisation. They must have had their own ambitions. (yeah Starfleet is military, it acts like one).

 

[Leto_II]

I think you're reading too much into that. If you look closely, Bob Greenberger was talking solely about his own opinion that the 5YM was "pretty well mined," which was why he preferred to focus the TOS comic he edited on movie-era content. As Bob said, Richard Arnold disagreed and thought there was plenty of room left in the 5YM.

Right, yeah, that's why I specified "DC and Paramount," there, as opposed to "the licensees and Paramount" -- I was only making reference to Bob's thoughts on the matter, which I had no idea were even officially expressed to someone like Richard Arnold at some point back then. The novels still would've done their own thing regardless. Happening across those early '90s lettercolumns again after all these years was an eye-opening experience, and I knew I had to share them with the forum here...and this thread suddenly gave the perfect opportunity.

For my own part, I agree with Bob. Arnold said he'd estimated the whole of TOS took only a year and a half, but it would be absurd to expect every adventure to pick up immediately after the last one. It's a big galaxy, and travel time from one star system to another would generally be on the order of weeks. There would need to be time between missions for ship repairs and the healing of injuries. There were a number of missions mentioned as occurring between episodes, like the delivery to Makus II several days after "The Galileo Seven," the delivery of supplies to Beta VI eight days after "The Squire of Gothos," the maintenance stopover at Cygnet XIV just before "Tomorrow is Yesterday," the two weeks spent ferrying delegates before "Journey to Babel" began, and so on. And naturally, not every mission would be some exciting life-or-death adventure. Many would be routine and uneventful and not worth depicting. All those factors would fill out the remaining time pretty well.

That made me facepalm slightly, too -- for being such a purported uber-fan, Arnold certainly didn't think certain things through all that particularly well from time to time.

A while back, I came to appreciate that the 5YM is just a setting, like Riverdale High or Springfield, or Gotham or Metropolis. It's a point of departure for storytelling, and if we're being honest then the actual period of time was filled to realistic levels decades ago. I quit worrying so much about how to make it all fit, because it's not possible without making contortions or rationalizations or interpretations, or deciding which stories stay and which go, and all of that involves reaching into subjective territory that'll never make everyone happy.

Besides, I still want to write stories with those characters at that point in their lives, so that's what I'm gonna do.

Keep on writin' 'em, Dayton, and we'll keep on buyin' em. Like most folks in here, I look at the 5YM era as a buffet -- you have options all up-and-down the way, and can pick a story over here and a story way over there, and lots of other things in between to fill out your own optimal "personal" continuity.

So do I. While I've no objections to additional 5YM stories, as I love the era also, at some point you can't possibly fit them all into a five year period. Also, more importantly to my mind, there are so many years of adventures with the original crew outside of the 5YM that are largely unchronicled, relatively speaking. In comparison, we've barely scratched the surface on the post-TMP 5YM, and there is still room for plenty of adventures in the post-TFF, pre-TUC era. As a child of the movie era, I'd like to see those periods explored a little more in both novels and comics.

QFT. Like for you, the movie era is my "main" personal favorite Star Trek time-period, and would love to see more stories set in that era, with the slightly-older versions of the TOS crew (plus the setting itself is extraordinarily fascinating on its own terms).

 

[Jbarney]

Great conversation....

One of the things I would love to see at some point (not to cause headaches, or arguments, etc) but to flesh things out realistically (hah).... would be to take a calendar driven approach to the FYM....each of the episodes broken down by how much time they "probably" took up. For example, we can all agree that the FYM is pretty saturated with stories, but just taking a look at the episodes, analyzing how much time certain eps took up. "City on the Edge of Forever" or "Mirror, Mirror" take up so much less time than other episodes. On the flip side, episodes like "The Paradise Syndrome" take up a huge amount of time.

Not sure of any fan pages that already do this or something similar....

Peace,
JB

 

[Leto_II]

I use a very, very similar approach to my own personal 5YM-continuity document -- i.e., attempting to determine approximately (within a reasonable guess, using the onscreen evidence) how much time a given episode or mission consumes, when not explicitly stated onscreen (in other words, most stories, apart from tales like "Journey to Babel" or "The Paradise Syndrome," where you're actually given some very specific, hard numbers).

A slightly-older timeline (written by Win Scott Eckert) actually gives estimated timespans for many TOS episodes, novels, and comics, but be warned that the author subscribes to the notion of "stardate-ordering," as opposed to "production-ordering":

http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Trek.pdf

My general rule of thumb is that I try not to have more than, say, 3-4 stories taking place in any given calendar month at the absolute maximum, accounting for transit-time between star systems, ship repairs at starbases, crew shore-leave downtime, etc. During certain episodes we actually receive a few onscreen dialogue-cues pointing to likely placements (circa Thanksgiving in "Charlie X," etc.), and a number of recent, modern Litverse novels have gone even further at nailing down precision in dating-points, especially in series like Vanguard, which help us to refine approximate calendar-placements of many TOS episodes even further, when referenced offhandedly by various characters (either within a span of weeks or even days, occasionally).

For myself, modern Litverse dating-conventions take full priority over older assumptions, and for the most part my personal document hangs together pretty darned well -- I was skimming it just recently, and was amazed that there are barely any "fudgings" with regard to dating-placements in it at all at the moment. There are a couple of " '80s continuity" Pocket Books novels still in there (like The Tears of the Singers, which ties into TAS), but by and large my current 5YM-continuity consists of books published from the mid-'90s to the present day (simply due to improved compatibility with later filmed Star Trek productions).

 

[Idran]

This board doesn't allow empty-quoting, but if it did I'd just do that for Leto_II's post, because that describes my own Trek chronology approach pretty well too.

 

[ryan123450]

And I have to say that you are both the absolute masters of Treklit timelining.