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Spoilers A list of bad scientific errors in Discovery

ISS_Einstein

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
Let's discuss DSC's scientific believability, please provide examples if you can.

"Remember always that STAR TREK is never fantasy; whatever happens, no matter how unusual or bizarre, must have some basis in either fact or theory and stay true to that premise"

"IMPORTANT: The writer must know what he means when he uses science or projected science terminology. A scattergun confusion of meaningless phrases only detracts from believability."

"What have been the "big problem areas” in past story and script submissions? Again, it has been in areas of believability. Many otherwise good writers tend to pepper their science fiction with "out of left field” coincidences, un-explained and illogical actions, unmotivated character changes, things they would never dream of perpetrating on even a kiddies show script."

- 1967 Star Trek Writer's Guide, Third Revision

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Violation of the 'conservation of mass'

Most fundamental rule in all of science - matter and energy are never created or destroyed - only changed into different forms.

In Season 02, Episode 01, we see Starfleet deploy a small metal object on the floor that seems to magically grow into a much larger metal object. The episode also includes a few other things like a science officer saying "the signal isn't a planet, star or moon", I guess he meant "isn't coming from".

Possible explanations: Maybe the metal is nano-meters thick, and is folded up like origami (...although it certainly does not look like that). Maybe it somehow replicates new mass from some energy source (...which seems ridiculously god-like ability).

Bottom line: It looked fucking stupid :)


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Dark matter, which is 'non-baryonic' has magical properties

All matter we have ever seen, including you and me, is baryonic. We know nothing about dark matter. It's properties are a complete guess. We think it interacts with baryonic matter gravitationally. Not everyone is even entirely sure that the missing mass in the universe conclusively proves dark matter exists. It's just a moniker, it isn't actually poetically dark/ominous.

In Season 02, Episode 02, a piece of dark matter is used like a fast-moving black hole to pull some asteroids along in it's gravity well; we don't know the relative mass of the bodies but the effect seems super-disproportionate as if the dark matter were putting out neutron-star levels of gravitation. It seems to have just been done, like so many things in Star Trek: Discovery, for purely visual reasons. I have no idea, like with much of what happens in Discovery, why the ship needed to use a mycellial jump to get into position either, when warp would be near-instantaneous at those distances; maybe I would have to watch the scene again, since the scientific exposition in DSC is always super-unclear compared to TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY. I also don't know what a 'space donut' is really meant to be in the vacuum of space, because it basically sounds identical to the kinds of standard turns that space vehicles would perform all the time.

Dark matter is often used (on the fantasy-end of the sliding spectrum), as a generic 'magic glowing rock', akin to some talisman in Dungeons and Dragons. People seem to have a fetish for floating rocks and magic rocks on the low end of the hardness scale. I guess a lot of people trying to think of something visually cool without scientific context invariably come up with 'floating rocks', 'glowing rocks' and the like. The concept has always looked fucking stupid in anything that is meant to be serious space opera.

Possible explanations: The planet's rings and the matter identified as dark matter in discovery are both some really exotic stuff, that glow and look cool for some reason, (i.e. emit light and are therefore really fucking detectable by telescopes), but actually through some obscure path, don't violate any rules of the universe somehow.

Bottom line: Magic visuals for visuals sake, instead of conceptual beauty as in actual science fiction. At least giant green space hands aren't meant to be a 'natural phenomena'.


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DNA is magic, and stores people's memories

A person's memories are stored in the cells of their brain. Memory is not hereditary. This shouldn't need explaining further.

In Season 02, Episode 05, we are rushed through some very vague exposition about how injecting Dr Culber's DNA into a fungi-based multidimensional transporter pad, will allow him to be resurrected. Maybe this creates a third Dr Culber, after the second began to be eaten away moments before in the mushroom world. The new Culber wakes up and immediately knows the name of the person holding him.

Possible explanations: The mushroom transporter pad somehow knew that when some humans hypo sprayed some random DNA into it, it was meant to build a new person, then superimpose the brain structure of a dissolving man onto the new body. (Why it has this function, or how anyone would know it did, is beyond me however.)

Bottom line: It's seems really contrived. The exposition is deliberately super unclear.


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Bonus: Burham not reporting the 'Red Angel' to Pike out of fear

All that Michael Burnham has to say to her commanding officer is "during an away mission, I thought I saw a potential alien life-form, but can't be absolutely sure as I was injured". Her commanding officer would then take her observation under advisement. It's actually a duty to report such information. The fundamental of science is the sharing of information.

Why is information so frequently withheld on Discovery, and why has a natural phenomenon been acceptably presented in non-objective ways by a team of trained scientists? For that matter, what is current science fiction's obsession with ambiguous visions? Not that many people can claim to have experienced psychosis or anything similar, it's not really a relatable experience for many people, thankfully. Yet Battlestar Galactica, Stargate Universe, and now Star Trek: Discovery seem to have an obsession with "is it or isn't it" hallucinations. Can we have some actual science fiction please, instead of relying on stuff like this?
 
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Welcome to Star Trek?

TNG was full of magic rocks, magic endless-metal-pockets, and psychotic breaks, was it? News to me.

Anyway, let's judge the show on it's own merits shall we? When the first reply to every thread attempts to deflect criticism with some laconic comment (which isn't even true), bringing up the relatively fewer (and more understandable) errors in previous Star Trek shows, I think it's a pretty transparent attempt to end constructive discussion.

Let's face it, this is a whole new level of scientific illiteracy, compared to the majority of Trek. Even in TOS, people generally used the correct SI units, proposed logical theories of why shit was happening, etc.

EDIT:

Out of interest, here is my feelings on the placement of Trek:

*Harder space opera*
|
|- Revelation Space, Tau Zero, Red Mars, Rendezvous with Rama, The Martian
|
|- The Expanse
|
|- Foundation
|
|- Babylon 5, Star Trek, Stargate SG1, Firefly, Mass Effect, Dune, Warhammer 40,000, Farscape
|
|- Star Wars
|
|- Doctor Who, Space 1999
|
|- Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, John Carter of Mars, Flash Gordon
|
*Softer space opera*

Using the Wikipedia definitions as a guideline....
  • - Hard Science Fiction deals with "an emphasis on scientific accuracy"
  • - Soft Science Fiction deals with either "soft sciences" or are simply "not scientifically accurate"
Needless to say, I think the scale is a relative one. I think Star Trek is medium relative to others, especially on TV.
 
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When the first reply to every thread attempts to deflect criticism with some laconic comment (which isn't even true), bringing up the relatively fewer (and more understandable) errors in previous Star Trek shows, I think it's a pretty transparent attempt to end constructive discussion.

You obviously don't know my feelings towards Discovery. :guffaw:

I've been watching since the mid-70's and there is a shit-ton of "magic" and bad science littered throughout. Genesis device anyone? Spock being reincarnated?
 
Yeah, but we already know, don't we, that Star Trek III is hardly the high point of Star Trek's science.

Nor are the movies, generally, representative of the franchise, wouldn't you agree?
 
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So, what you're saying is I can't use 'shrooms to take a trip to the other side of the galaxy and then end up right back at home when the effects wear off?
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Your list is both entirely too short and wholly unnecessary given the number of bad scientific errors in not just Discovery but Trek as a franchise. That ship has sailed. I also appreciate a show that makes an effort at greater accuracy like The Expanse (but still not nearly total accuracy), but Trek has never been hard science fiction (even when it had science advisors and made more of an effort), and I don't necessarily need it to be. I like a bit of impossibly fantastical storytelling too, and sometimes you're going to blow through the walls of scientific plausibility like the Kool Aid Man to do it. Variety is good; more grounded scifi versus science fantasy can both be enjoyable.

That being said, pointing out scientific errors in popular movies and TV for the educational value can be fun and interesting and thought provoking too, so there's that. But trying to say this show is more scientifically implausible than the sum of most other Trek series and films is a hopeless cause. That way madness lies.
 
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Both warp drive and instantaneous communication across light years are impossible in our universe. And those are Trek staples.

There is a huge difference - there are theoretical loopholes even today for surmounting those barriers - an Einstein-Rosen bridge, the deformation of spacetime by something like the 'Alcubieere Drive', etc - and they are required concessions to the setting. Pretty much all sci-fi accepts FTL as a concession, barring a few authors like Alistair Reynolds.

What is the high point of Star Trek's science? Everyone being able to procreate with everyone else?

Another example of of a concession to the space opera format, although not unique to Star Trek I might add. Is this seriously as bad as ignoring conservation of mass? One theoretically allows anything, literally anything, like a yellow brick road from Earth to Qo'noS - destroys any semblance of engineering realism - and the other is much more specific and understandable for dramatic needs - i.e. Spock's mixed race identity. I can understand your point, but most of Trek's previous errors were at least justified in theory, by a bit of exposition - there is however very little reason or justification for a lot of what happens in DSC beyond visuals - endless unfolding metal, or treating DNA like a plug-in PC mod.

Can we agree that in the era of The Expanse, Trek should be getting more believable, not less?
 
Can we agree that in the era of The Expanse, Trek should be getting more believable, not less?

If you're doing a reboot, then yes. If you're just playing to the past, then you might as well give the people who are paying what they want. Star Trek really isn't science fiction anymore, it is its own thing with its own rules.
 
If you're doing a reboot, then yes. If you're just playing to the past, then you might as well give the people who are paying what they want. Star Trek really isn't science fiction anymore, it is its own thing with its own rules.

Yes I've made this point before - It's pointless comparing Trek to modern science fiction because it deliberately ignores most of that stuff and always has.
 
TNG was full of magic rocks, magic endless-metal-pockets, and psychotic breaks, was it? News to me.

Anyway, let's judge the show on it's own merits shall we? When the first reply to every thread attempts to deflect criticism with some laconic comment (which isn't even true), bringing up the relatively fewer (and more understandable) errors in previous Star Trek shows, I think it's a pretty transparent attempt to end constructive discussion.

Let's face it, this is a whole new level of scientific illiteracy, compared to the majority of Trek. Even in TOS, people generally used the correct SI units, proposed logical theories of why shit was happening, etc.

To your first three questions, yes, yes and yes. Where have you been the last 50 years?
 
Yes I've made this point before - It's pointless comparing Trek to modern science fiction because it deliberately ignores most of that stuff and always has.

Science fiction has been deliberately ignoring most of that stuff since it was invented. I think you are confusing 'modern' science fiction with 'hard' science fiction. Modern is just what's being written at any point in time. The term 'Hard' actually has substance to it. Star Trek has also never been classified as 'Hard' Science Fiction.
 
If you're doing a reboot, then yes. If you're just playing to the past, then you might as well give the people who are paying what they want. Star Trek really isn't science fiction anymore, it is its own thing with its own rules.

Star Trek has always been science fiction. Science Fiction, as has been famously stated, is what is sold in the science fiction section. That's why there are subgenres to offer a little more specificity.
 
Star Trek has always been science fiction. Science Fiction, as has been famously stated, is what is sold in the science fiction section. That's why there are subgenres to offer a little more specificity.

I think it was very, very soft science-fiction, at best. I say this as a fan of science fiction and Star Trek.

As far as conservation of mass, Trek has been ignoring that pretty much from the beginning. We have to identical Kirk's in "The Enemy Within". Where did the mass come from for the double when he was split, where did it go when he was reintegrated?
 
There is a huge difference - there are theoretical loopholes even today for surmounting those barriers - an Einstein-Rosen bridge, the deformation of spacetime by something like the 'Alcubieere Drive', etc - and they are required concessions to the setting. Pretty much all sci-fi accepts FTL as a concession, barring a few authors like Alistair Reynolds.



Another example of of a concession to the space opera format, although not unique to Star Trek I might add. Is this seriously as bad as ignoring conservation of mass? One theoretically allows anything, literally anything, like a yellow brick road from Earth to Qo'noS - destroys any semblance of engineering realism - and the other is much more specific and understandable for dramatic needs - i.e. Spock's mixed race identity. I can understand your point, but most of Trek's previous errors were at least justified in theory, by a bit of exposition - there is however very little reason or justification for a lot of what happens in DSC beyond visuals - endless unfolding metal, or treating DNA like a plug-in PC mod.

Can we agree that in the era of The Expanse, Trek should be getting more believable, not less?

Since what point did Star Trek's "exploring only strictly plausible, according to today's empirically theorized scientific understanding of the universe, strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations" become the franchise's tagline?
 
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