Isn't the issue whether it's an aspirated H or not? Historical doesn't have a silent H, but it does have a non-aspirated one (compare Historical to Help).
"a historic" or "an historic"--Vote
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Isn't the issue whether it's an aspirated H or not? Historical doesn't have a silent H, but it does have a non-aspirated one (compare Historical to Help).
I'm not sure. I don't really make a distinction between an aspirated and non-aspirated H. When you say aspirated, I'm more inclined to think it refers to "ch" or "kh" sounds, like Loch Ness or Sikhism.
Yea, verily.
The choice of "a" or "an" is strictly based on pronunciation. Words that start with vowel sounds use "an" and consonant sounds use "a." Technically speaking, "a historic" is correct because the H is pronounced in "proper" speaking. However, if one pronounces it with a dropped H, then "an 'istoric" is correct.
When speaking, it's best to just ignore the rules and use whichever sounds best. When writing, it's best to go with the rules based on proper pronunciation.
Personally, I pronounce the H in "historic," so I use "a" most of the time. I'll use "an" if I want to sound pretentious, like when you people use Latin or Greek grammar to pluralize words of Latin or Greek origin rather than English rules. (The plural of "forum" is "forums," I refuse to say "fora.")
When speaking, it's best to just ignore the rules and use whichever sounds best. When writing, it's best to go with the rules based on proper pronunciation.
Personally, I pronounce the H in "historic," so I use "a" most of the time. I'll use "an" if I want to sound pretentious, like when you people use Latin or Greek grammar to pluralize words of Latin or Greek origin rather than English rules. (The plural of "forum" is "forums," I refuse to say "fora.")
No, much more subtle than that. I forget what sound that is, a glutteral stop maybe.
I'll use P as an example. Put your hand in front of your mouth and say "park." Did you feel that puff of air? Now do the same thing and say "computer." See how that P was different? Well, it should be different. It helps to simultaneously not overthink it since there is a tendency to aspirate the p in the second case when you do.
You can try the same thing with historical. I find I'm about 50/50 as far as aspiration.
Agreed, and this may apply to grammar as well. Oral everyday communication is a lot LESS formal than written English, for instance, business writing. (A communications consultant once pointed out, however, that e-mail tends to be a lot more casual these days, but I still write with complete sentences and mind my punctuation and grammar.)
Having said that, I used to say "my brothers-in-law" when referring to my sisters' husbands, which was the grammatically correct thing to do. Nowadays, that sounds weird to me, so I say "brother-in-laws." 
I go with whatever is more commonly used: alumni, data, bacteria, genera. Words like forums (fora) and indexes (indices) have more common usages in everyday language or written communication, too.
That's very interesting. I do notice the difference in the force of pronunciation like you mentioned (computer vs. park), but doesn't that have more to do with the stress/emphasis of syllables and the vowel that follows H? For instance, a's and o's are usually stronger than i and u sounds. Also, if I was being forceful, I suppose I could still say "kom-PYOO-ter" with emphasis on the P.
That depends on the word. I agree that it would be ridiculously pedantic to use vacua as the plural of vacuum, for example. Or to insist that data must be construed as a plural rather than a collective singular. I mean, how many people nowadays say “These data are in error”? People who do that have bacula up their recta.
However, it drives me nuts when I see phenomena (plural) when the writer means phenomenon (singular), or criteria (plural) when the singular criterion is meant. And I’m a stickler for the correct use of alumnus (masculine singular), alumna (feminine singular), alumnae (feminine plural) and alumni (masculine or generic plural).
I’ve never heard of a “glutteral stop.” Methinks you’re conflating “gutteral” with “glottal.”
“Aspirated H” simply means H as normally pronounced by most English speakers, as in horse or hill.
A glottal stop is a quick interruption of the flow of breath over the vocal cords, as in Stanley Holloway’s pronunciation of the T sound in “little.”
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Sj9o7DWJU[/yt]
In English, the sounds generally have to do with emphasis, but, believe it or not, in other languages, they're separate distinct sounds. It makes a difference whether or not a P is aspirated or not for what the word means.
It does have to do with the stress of the word, but not the specific vowel that follows. The link in the first post of this thread explains this. Essentially, the further the stress is from the beginning of the word, the weaker the H is. When the H is very weak, even though it is pronounced, many believe that it should be preceded by "an."
Me thinks your right. I also think that neither is what I meant in this context.
To me, “brother-in-laws” sounds illiterate. In both writing and speech, I always use the correct plurals: brothers-in-law, attorneys general, etc.. . . I used to say "my brothers-in-law" when referring to my sisters' husbands, which was the grammatically correct thing to do.
Nowadays, that sounds weird to me, so I say "brother-in-laws."
(Although I admit that “courts martial” sounds a bit strange. Fortunately, so far I’ve never needed to use the plural of “court martial.”)
Attorneys General is another one. That one might come up sporadically too.
Glottal stops are when the sound is stopped by the glottis, Many varieties of English do it. Bu-un for Button- the Bu is cut in an abrupt stop by the glottis which takes the place of the T sound. Eliza Doolittle does it all the time. A gutteral is that throat clearing gargle sound a lot of Scots and Germans make like 'Ach, so, Colonel Hogan.' They aren't the same sound. Glutteral stops are a more complicated dialect requiring great amounts of chilli and dark beer.
To me, “brother-in-laws” sounds illiterate. In both writing and speech, I always use the correct plurals: brothers-in-law, attorneys general, etc.. . . I used to say "my brothers-in-law" when referring to my sisters' husbands, which was the grammatically correct thing to do.
Nowadays, that sounds weird to me, so I say "brother-in-laws."
(Although I admit that “courts martial” sounds a bit strange. Fortunately, so far I’ve never needed to use the plural of “court martial.”)
Everyday spoken English isn't always grammatically right, and I've learned to "loosen up" over the years.
One of the things that bothers me is the use of unnecessary prepositions, as in "Where are you going to?" Now that really sounds illiterate to me. I have no problem ending a sentence with a preposition when the occasion really calls for it. "Where are you from?"
Oh, so it was a gutteral. I was close. All I did was add an L and the word Stop to it
See video link upthread, post #69.
The Northern English and Scots use it as well. Remember the line from A Hard Day’s Night? “Oh, you can come off it with us. You don’t have to do all the old adenoidal glottal stop and carry on for our benefit.” The TV show producer thinks George is putting on a fake accent!
Absolutely!
Also. many an actor has made the mistake of not fine tuning their glottal stops when putting on a northern accent. There's a lot of subtlety to their use.
This. And I was never taught any exceptions with "h". To me treating it as a vowel, or dropping the "h" just comes across as cockney British and sounds very low class to me.
It seems it's the correct thing to do, but I won't do it. H is a consonant to me.
As has been pointed out many times in this thread, it all comes down to your accent. If your accent pronounces the H, use "a." If it doesn't, use "an."
Over here in Australia, people always say "an historic" (at least, on television, which I hear on the news all the time, so I assume that's how they're told to say it), even though we always pronounce the "h" here. I know that many accents do reasonably account for the difference, especially British, although it confuses me that anyone would do it here.
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