Re: A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did
I am confused. Is this sarcasm?
I am confused. Is this sarcasm?
A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did Not
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Re: A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did
Whilst this thread is still around, I suppose I should take this opportunity to expand upon the previous point I raised concerning Spock in greater detail.
Now, it almost need not be said that Spock does not openly show romantic behaviour without somehow not being in a sound state of mind and has established that his professional responsibilities always take precedence over this sort of involvement, as episodes like This Side of Paradise, Amok Time and All Our Yesterdays that touch upon this issue are widely known to Trek audiences. Whilst I am not claiming that it would be impossible for Spock to have romantic interest in a human when he himself is the result of his father's relationship with one, if it were considered essential for the new film to feature a Spock/Uhura romance, I personally would have gone about it in a far more subtle and tasteful fashion. Here is exactly why I feel that way based on established characterisation of Spock and Vulcan culture in general.
As mentioned before, it goes without saying that showing such a dramatic level of open affection is not something which Spock is typically inclined to do. One need only look at Amok Time to evidence this, where Spock is portrayed as being extremely hesitant in so much as speaking of his species' sexuality to his closest personal associate and commanding officer, clearly embarrassed by the indignity of his behaviour during his pon farr. While it is true that in The Cloud Miners Spock seems far less discomforted by the subject, considering that many fans found this instance baffling and even Nimoy himself was against this direction of his character, it would appear reasonable to assume that Amok Time is the 'definite' portrayal of Spock's attitude towards this subject.
In regard to instances of Vulcan romantic behaviour under normal circumstances that have been presented on screen, I must temporarily shift focus away from Spock himself. If there is any one actor in Star Trek apart from Leonard Nimoy who I would claim to have the definitive portrayal of a Vulcan, that person is Mark Lenard as Sarek. Dignified, charismatic and able to speak in tones that seep with gravity and intelligence, Lenard epitomises everything that one expects from a senior Vulcan; cool and collected, yet with an underlying impression of wisdom and understated emotion that I often find lacking in portrayals of Vulcans that over-emphasise their mental discipline and effectively treat them as living robots. In Journey to Babel, while it is clear that there is a world of difference between Sarek and his spouse Amanda Grayson, there also clear undercurrent of affection and respect between the two. However, despite having been married to Amanda for decades, Sarek never breaks from his typically Vulcan character by kissing, embracing or otherwise displaying his affection in manners considered usual by humans. Instead, at moments where he and Amanda intend to express this, they quietly extend and cross their index and middle fingers with each-other for a brief window of time. It is heavily implied that the two are genuinely in love, but is in this subtle, understated manner that it is expressed. In the later episode of The Enterprise Incident, where it is suggested that Spock feels an attraction to the unnamed Romulan Commander to some degree or another in spite of the deceitful nature of his mission, Spock performs a similar action involving the contact of fingers. Not only would this appear to confirm that such de-emphasised expression is the norm for their species in this regard, but the original script called for a scene of outright passion; something that was changed for the more demure finger caresses at the insistence of Nimoy himself because he found it to be out of character.
In conclusion, I must state that had I been asked to handle the Spock/Uhura angle for the script of the film, I would have respected Vulcan lore, not to mention precedent set concerning the matter by the very man responsible for establishing Spock's character to begin with, and kept the romance as low-key as reasonably possible, i.e. not written in several seconds of on-screen kissing in the presence of other characters. In my opinion, a possible romantic interest should only have been alluded to (as it had been up to that point) and Spock should have limited any open romantic expression to a simple contact of fingers, which would both preserve his characteristically dignified attitude and make a lovely nod to viewers of The Original Series who would be in the audience. I simply cannot accept such a gratuitous display of romantic passion as a faithful interpretation of Spock's character, regardless of attempts to justify this by way of his traumatised state.
Whilst this thread is still around, I suppose I should take this opportunity to expand upon the previous point I raised concerning Spock in greater detail.
Now, it almost need not be said that Spock does not openly show romantic behaviour without somehow not being in a sound state of mind and has established that his professional responsibilities always take precedence over this sort of involvement, as episodes like This Side of Paradise, Amok Time and All Our Yesterdays that touch upon this issue are widely known to Trek audiences. Whilst I am not claiming that it would be impossible for Spock to have romantic interest in a human when he himself is the result of his father's relationship with one, if it were considered essential for the new film to feature a Spock/Uhura romance, I personally would have gone about it in a far more subtle and tasteful fashion. Here is exactly why I feel that way based on established characterisation of Spock and Vulcan culture in general.
As mentioned before, it goes without saying that showing such a dramatic level of open affection is not something which Spock is typically inclined to do. One need only look at Amok Time to evidence this, where Spock is portrayed as being extremely hesitant in so much as speaking of his species' sexuality to his closest personal associate and commanding officer, clearly embarrassed by the indignity of his behaviour during his pon farr. While it is true that in The Cloud Miners Spock seems far less discomforted by the subject, considering that many fans found this instance baffling and even Nimoy himself was against this direction of his character, it would appear reasonable to assume that Amok Time is the 'definite' portrayal of Spock's attitude towards this subject.
In regard to instances of Vulcan romantic behaviour under normal circumstances that have been presented on screen, I must temporarily shift focus away from Spock himself. If there is any one actor in Star Trek apart from Leonard Nimoy who I would claim to have the definitive portrayal of a Vulcan, that person is Mark Lenard as Sarek. Dignified, charismatic and able to speak in tones that seep with gravity and intelligence, Lenard epitomises everything that one expects from a senior Vulcan; cool and collected, yet with an underlying impression of wisdom and understated emotion that I often find lacking in portrayals of Vulcans that over-emphasise their mental discipline and effectively treat them as living robots. In Journey to Babel, while it is clear that there is a world of difference between Sarek and his spouse Amanda Grayson, there also clear undercurrent of affection and respect between the two. However, despite having been married to Amanda for decades, Sarek never breaks from his typically Vulcan character by kissing, embracing or otherwise displaying his affection in manners considered usual by humans. Instead, at moments where he and Amanda intend to express this, they quietly extend and cross their index and middle fingers with each-other for a brief window of time. It is heavily implied that the two are genuinely in love, but is in this subtle, understated manner that it is expressed. In the later episode of The Enterprise Incident, where it is suggested that Spock feels an attraction to the unnamed Romulan Commander to some degree or another in spite of the deceitful nature of his mission, Spock performs a similar action involving the contact of fingers. Not only would this appear to confirm that such de-emphasised expression is the norm for their species in this regard, but the original script called for a scene of outright passion; something that was changed for the more demure finger caresses at the insistence of Nimoy himself because he found it to be out of character.
In conclusion, I must state that had I been asked to handle the Spock/Uhura angle for the script of the film, I would have respected Vulcan lore, not to mention precedent set concerning the matter by the very man responsible for establishing Spock's character to begin with, and kept the romance as low-key as reasonably possible, i.e. not written in several seconds of on-screen kissing in the presence of other characters. In my opinion, a possible romantic interest should only have been alluded to (as it had been up to that point) and Spock should have limited any open romantic expression to a simple contact of fingers, which would both preserve his characteristically dignified attitude and make a lovely nod to viewers of The Original Series who would be in the audience. I simply cannot accept such a gratuitous display of romantic passion as a faithful interpretation of Spock's character, regardless of attempts to justify this by way of his traumatised state.
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Re: A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did
You are forgetting two three things Corallis; one the precedent of a Vulcan that has been stated in the more consistent Trek shows and has said clearly that Vulcan's were a race of great passion who could not control themselves so they turned to the ways of Surek, who was a sort of Vulcan savior of the species, they learned to control their emotions with logic but underneath still had to wrestle with those emotions lest they should take over.
Two, Spock didn't show any outward affection for Uhura in the film until the extremely traumatic series of events, the Death of his mother Amanda, and the destruction of his home planet at the hands of a Romulan seemingly for no logical reason, or any explained at that time, I beleive this put Spock into a state of shock, this would only be naturally since seeing or having traumatic events occur to any person would do just that, I know I have seen it happen to people before, shock is a state in which the person sort of goes numb at first not really absorbing the full effect of the event seemingly at first and acting normal but really they are traumatized and breaking down emotionally, why would Spock who is also half human be any different, and being that he is half Vulcan I believe he is even more susceptible to extreme trauma though his training is still working to a degree, really it can only do so much for he has been overloaded by the events in the film.
Finally three; Uhura reached out to Spock first emotionally, knowing that he must be feeling great turmoil inside, and caring for him, wanting to comfort him she expressed her desire to comfort him which makes sense for any human or human lover and how did Spock react, hesitant at first, trying to regain control over himself in reaction to her open display and powerful of affection for him, he was compromised emotionally after all, wanting to remain logical but not hurt Uhura for apart of him wanted the comfort she offered he reminded himself and her of their duty, so is it any wonder that Kirk's deliberate provocation did indeed incite Spock to finally react and violently towards what at that moment seemed like an enemy when Spock was trying to perform his duty and do the right thing as an officer and a Vulcan.
The movie was perfectly respectful of Vulcan's in the film, it was stated on TOS that Spock was bullied as a child as well, as some have also companied about the Vulcan children's behavior towards young Spock, logic after all is something you train for and aspire to, it isn't something that just comes by instinct, it is learned otherwise they would not have needed Surek. I rather liked the fact that the Vulcan's were portrayed as logical people wrestling with a passionate nature, it is true to Star Trek and true to how Nimoy displayed Spock in TOS. There have been definitively worse portrayals of Vulcan's in the history of Trek, look at Enterprise for example, look at how wooden Tim Russ's portrayal of Tuvok was, it was a terrible way to act as a Vulcan, what was worse was that he did display contempt and arrogance at times though that was more due to the writing, still it seems that only Nimoy the first actor to portray a Vulcan really understood the nature of the species, he defined them after all, and in the new film talked with Quinto on how to accurately perform as Spock, as a Vulcan, and he did a great job I think. Try and reexamine the movie when it comes out on blu-ray/DVD wherever you are, with what I said in mind, you might just see the Vulcan's in the film differently.
You are forgetting two three things Corallis; one the precedent of a Vulcan that has been stated in the more consistent Trek shows and has said clearly that Vulcan's were a race of great passion who could not control themselves so they turned to the ways of Surek, who was a sort of Vulcan savior of the species, they learned to control their emotions with logic but underneath still had to wrestle with those emotions lest they should take over.
Two, Spock didn't show any outward affection for Uhura in the film until the extremely traumatic series of events, the Death of his mother Amanda, and the destruction of his home planet at the hands of a Romulan seemingly for no logical reason, or any explained at that time, I beleive this put Spock into a state of shock, this would only be naturally since seeing or having traumatic events occur to any person would do just that, I know I have seen it happen to people before, shock is a state in which the person sort of goes numb at first not really absorbing the full effect of the event seemingly at first and acting normal but really they are traumatized and breaking down emotionally, why would Spock who is also half human be any different, and being that he is half Vulcan I believe he is even more susceptible to extreme trauma though his training is still working to a degree, really it can only do so much for he has been overloaded by the events in the film.
Finally three; Uhura reached out to Spock first emotionally, knowing that he must be feeling great turmoil inside, and caring for him, wanting to comfort him she expressed her desire to comfort him which makes sense for any human or human lover and how did Spock react, hesitant at first, trying to regain control over himself in reaction to her open display and powerful of affection for him, he was compromised emotionally after all, wanting to remain logical but not hurt Uhura for apart of him wanted the comfort she offered he reminded himself and her of their duty, so is it any wonder that Kirk's deliberate provocation did indeed incite Spock to finally react and violently towards what at that moment seemed like an enemy when Spock was trying to perform his duty and do the right thing as an officer and a Vulcan.
The movie was perfectly respectful of Vulcan's in the film, it was stated on TOS that Spock was bullied as a child as well, as some have also companied about the Vulcan children's behavior towards young Spock, logic after all is something you train for and aspire to, it isn't something that just comes by instinct, it is learned otherwise they would not have needed Surek. I rather liked the fact that the Vulcan's were portrayed as logical people wrestling with a passionate nature, it is true to Star Trek and true to how Nimoy displayed Spock in TOS. There have been definitively worse portrayals of Vulcan's in the history of Trek, look at Enterprise for example, look at how wooden Tim Russ's portrayal of Tuvok was, it was a terrible way to act as a Vulcan, what was worse was that he did display contempt and arrogance at times though that was more due to the writing, still it seems that only Nimoy the first actor to portray a Vulcan really understood the nature of the species, he defined them after all, and in the new film talked with Quinto on how to accurately perform as Spock, as a Vulcan, and he did a great job I think. Try and reexamine the movie when it comes out on blu-ray/DVD wherever you are, with what I said in mind, you might just see the Vulcan's in the film differently.
Re: A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did
Of course I am entirely aware of the nature of Vulcans, as well as the history of their civilisation. In fact, I even allude to this in regard to Mark Lenard as Sarek ('...with an underlying impression of wisdom and understated emotion that I often find lacking in portrayals of Vulcans that over-emphasise their mental discipline and effectively treat them as living robots') and my acknowledgement of their relationship to the Romulans.
I am also aware of the justification you are presenting based on the events of the film. In fact, I even explicitally mention it at the very end of my last paragraph. The cause of my concern is more to do with the writers' intent in creating the circumstances to make this development 'justifiable'. Call me a cynic, but I suspect that the series of events immediately preceding the scene in question were set up for the purpose of justifying a radical departure from his established character, i.e. provide him with a love interest. Of course, as a method of writing this is perfectly acceptable; one must expect a writer to create a natural sequence of events to reach the intended conclusion. However, it is reasonable to assume that this newly developed relationship will be continued in some form or another into the following film(s), causing me to question the motives of the writer as to whether or not they plotted this film with the specific objective of providing Spock with an on-screen romance for the rebooted timeline, thus providing an exploitable means of marketing towards certain target audiences, such as adolescent females. Once again, you may regard me as being an overly cynical person, but it is true that I am not entirely sold on the motivations of the creative team. Say all you wish about the circumstances under which Vulcan discipline may be pushed to breaking point, but the fact of the matter is that (for better or worse) Spock having a canonical romantic link with another crewmember is not precedented in spite of moments across the series where his discipline lapses due to circumstance. Once can argue that this is a positive thing. After all, J.J. Abrams was very keen to promote the reboot as being 'not your father's Star Trek' and speak of re-invigorating the franchise with stunning new directions. Yet while this certainly succeeds in the latter, I for one view this as too great a compromise of Spock's essential character to be anything short of a marketing tool. A 'sell-out', if you will. My own father is definitely not pleased with this new direction they are taking with Spock (or many of the new directions taken in the film generally, for that matter) and neither is my cousin, who is nearly 5 years my junior. Unless Spock's character returns to a form more in touch with his classic portrayal (i.e. with underlying emotional tensions generally only touched upon delicately), I'm afraid that Paramount has lost me as a potential future ticketholder unless I hear some extremely positive things about the sequel. Of course, they will sell out plenty of screens and generate millions whether or not a sole Englishman wishes to see their film, but that is how things stand in regard to me personally. Feel free to call that unreasonable, but I ultimately did go to the cinema, purchase my ticket and give the first installment it's deserved chance. I'm sure that you have experience with films that you only sat through once, but would not be terribly keen on seeing again without some very convincing arguments do so. Take my two cents as what they are and accept that this happens to be one of mine.
Of course I am entirely aware of the nature of Vulcans, as well as the history of their civilisation. In fact, I even allude to this in regard to Mark Lenard as Sarek ('...with an underlying impression of wisdom and understated emotion that I often find lacking in portrayals of Vulcans that over-emphasise their mental discipline and effectively treat them as living robots') and my acknowledgement of their relationship to the Romulans.
I am also aware of the justification you are presenting based on the events of the film. In fact, I even explicitally mention it at the very end of my last paragraph. The cause of my concern is more to do with the writers' intent in creating the circumstances to make this development 'justifiable'. Call me a cynic, but I suspect that the series of events immediately preceding the scene in question were set up for the purpose of justifying a radical departure from his established character, i.e. provide him with a love interest. Of course, as a method of writing this is perfectly acceptable; one must expect a writer to create a natural sequence of events to reach the intended conclusion. However, it is reasonable to assume that this newly developed relationship will be continued in some form or another into the following film(s), causing me to question the motives of the writer as to whether or not they plotted this film with the specific objective of providing Spock with an on-screen romance for the rebooted timeline, thus providing an exploitable means of marketing towards certain target audiences, such as adolescent females. Once again, you may regard me as being an overly cynical person, but it is true that I am not entirely sold on the motivations of the creative team. Say all you wish about the circumstances under which Vulcan discipline may be pushed to breaking point, but the fact of the matter is that (for better or worse) Spock having a canonical romantic link with another crewmember is not precedented in spite of moments across the series where his discipline lapses due to circumstance. Once can argue that this is a positive thing. After all, J.J. Abrams was very keen to promote the reboot as being 'not your father's Star Trek' and speak of re-invigorating the franchise with stunning new directions. Yet while this certainly succeeds in the latter, I for one view this as too great a compromise of Spock's essential character to be anything short of a marketing tool. A 'sell-out', if you will. My own father is definitely not pleased with this new direction they are taking with Spock (or many of the new directions taken in the film generally, for that matter) and neither is my cousin, who is nearly 5 years my junior. Unless Spock's character returns to a form more in touch with his classic portrayal (i.e. with underlying emotional tensions generally only touched upon delicately), I'm afraid that Paramount has lost me as a potential future ticketholder unless I hear some extremely positive things about the sequel. Of course, they will sell out plenty of screens and generate millions whether or not a sole Englishman wishes to see their film, but that is how things stand in regard to me personally. Feel free to call that unreasonable, but I ultimately did go to the cinema, purchase my ticket and give the first installment it's deserved chance. I'm sure that you have experience with films that you only sat through once, but would not be terribly keen on seeing again without some very convincing arguments do so. Take my two cents as what they are and accept that this happens to be one of mine.
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Re: A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did
Since Leonard Nimoy coached Zachary Quinto on how to play Spock accurately, I think that it is safe to assume that you will probably be happier with the next film, I don't know what they plan for the relationship between Spock and Uhura, but Spock will be closer to TOS in regard to the fact that he will be cementing his relationship with Kirk (which he has not done yet) and hopefully having some famous discussions with McCoy. I really believe that this Spock will grow and mature, and by mature I don't just mean he will get old, I mean he will change gain experience, and more importantly wisdom, this Spock is still young, give him time and you will eventually appreciate him.
PS
I think you all might have had the wrong expectations for the younger less mature Spock, he is after all around twenty five years in age, he will grow into the Spock you remember soon enough.
Since Leonard Nimoy coached Zachary Quinto on how to play Spock accurately, I think that it is safe to assume that you will probably be happier with the next film, I don't know what they plan for the relationship between Spock and Uhura, but Spock will be closer to TOS in regard to the fact that he will be cementing his relationship with Kirk (which he has not done yet) and hopefully having some famous discussions with McCoy. I really believe that this Spock will grow and mature, and by mature I don't just mean he will get old, I mean he will change gain experience, and more importantly wisdom, this Spock is still young, give him time and you will eventually appreciate him.
PS
I think you all might have had the wrong expectations for the younger less mature Spock, he is after all around twenty five years in age, he will grow into the Spock you remember soon enough.
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Re: A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did
^ Perhaps. As I said, I'll be keeping my ear keen for what feedback circulates regarding the sequel.
(Oh, and hoping this little exchange of points hasn't lowered your opinion of me *too* much, haha)
^ Perhaps. As I said, I'll be keeping my ear keen for what feedback circulates regarding the sequel.
(Oh, and hoping this little exchange of points hasn't lowered your opinion of me *too* much, haha)
Re: A Hand Extended From One Trekker Who Liked XI To The Other Who Did
Hey Corallis, I have requested you as a friend, check under your user cp under friends and contacts and you can accept; there.
Hey Corallis, I have requested you as a friend, check under your user cp under friends and contacts and you can accept; there.
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