A few things to discuss about Kes

[BohandiAnsoid]

As should be apparent from my activities on the forum, I really like Kes (well, Kes from Seasons 1 - 3). It has been some time since I talked about her last time, and I would like to discuss a few things about her.

1. Do you think that Kes eventually reached Earth and reunited with the Voyager crew? Either in an alternate timeline or somewhere in between Prodigy and Picard (although, in this case, she had to stay small so as to not interfere with events too much)?
2. Do you think Kes’ lifespan was eventually extended (like suggested in Cold Fire)?
3. Do you think Kes should join Starfleet and what rank do you think she should have if yes?
4. Do you think Kes would have taken issues with certain aspects of Vulcan culture, especially their marriage customs (especially due to her experiences in her relationship with Neelix and she would probably clearly see these customs can lead to even greater possessiveness than Neelix displayed towards her, and Kes’ ability to look at things from different angle would matter here too)?

 

[Lynx]

As should be apparent from my activities on the forum, I really like Kes (well, Kes from Seasons 1 - 3). It has been some time since I talked about her last time, and I would like to discuss a few things about her.

1. Do you think that Kes eventually reached Earth and reunited with the Voyager crew? Either in an alternate timeline or somewhere in between Prodigy and Picard (although, in this case, she had to stay small so as to not interfere with events too much)?
2. Do you think Kes’ lifespan was eventually extended (like suggested in Cold Fire)?
3. Do you think Kes should join Starfleet and what rank do you think she should have if yes?
4. Do you think Kes would have taken issues with certain aspects of Vulcan culture, especially their marriage customs (especially due to her experiences in her relationship with Neelix and she would probably clearly see these customs can lead to even greater possessiveness than Neelix displayed towards her, and Kes’ ability to look at things from different angle would matter here too)?

1. Yes she did.
She encountered a lost Maquis ship which had also been transported to the Delta Quadrant by the Caretaker and followed it back to the Alpha Quadrant. There she lives happily on a planet between Bajoran space and the Tzenkethi Coalition.

2. Yes!
After being turned into an energy being, she encounteded Q who gave her a human lifespan.

3. Maybe.
I guess she had to start as an Ensign and then become Lieutenant.
But she's a free spirit and might find it better to explore by herself and join her Voyager friands on certain occasions.

4. She would probably have studied it and all the Vulcan customs and found some of it good but some of it not so good.
But I dont think that she would go too deep into it snice there are so many other interesting species in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant to study and learn about.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Thank you for writing this.

Yes, there are many species to explore. I guess focusing on one is not somthing Kes would do.

 

[Oddish]

Do you think that Kes eventually reached Earth and reunited with the Voyager crew? Either in an alternate timeline or somewhere in between Prodigy and Picard (although, in this case, she had to stay small so as to not interfere with events too much)?

There could easily be an alternate timeline where Voyager got home when Kes was still alive and with the crew.

Do you think Kes’ lifespan was eventually extended (like suggested in Cold Fire)?

It could have happened, but it didn't have to. Perhaps just as future humans accept their 120-year lifespans, Ocampa accept theirs.

Do you think Kes should join Starfleet and what rank do you think she should have if yes?

Crewman. Four years at the Academy makes little sense when you only have nine to work with.

Do you think Kes would have taken issues with certain aspects of Vulcan culture, especially their marriage customs (especially due to her experiences in her relationship with Neelix and she would probably clearly see these customs can lead to even greater possessiveness than Neelix displayed towards her, and Kes’ ability to look at things from different angle would matter here too)?

Hard to say. Kes is not one for following rules just because everyone else does... but she doesn't seen excessively judgmental, either.

 

[Adventerprise]

@Akiraprise this post hasn't been commented in for seven months, but it mentions Kes's lifespan.

What if instead of living 9 years, she was only humanoid for nine years? Say for her first 20 years of life, she was a non-humanoid, then for 9 years she's a humanoid, and at the end of that, she becomes something else entirely incompatible with humanoid life (has to live in open space, the corona of a star, etc.) Or say she crosses dimensions every few years, and can never return to a previous dimension. So it's not her life that's a ticking clock, it's her continued ability to be with the crew. Knowing she's not dead but utterly inaccessible.

 

[Oddish]

The following subjects have come up in another topic, both concerning Kes's lifespan.

• Kes' short life span - Extend it or lean into it?
• Before & After vs Year of Hell - Kim Linnis Yuck?

While @Lynx has some valid points, and @Laura Cynthia Chambers has some intriguing ideas, I do think that Kes's brief lifespan could have been worked with. However, it would have required a team of showrunners who were committed to developing the character as she lived out her life. The Voyager showrunners were committed to the exact opposite.

As for Harry/Linnis, it's established that the Ocampa are fully capable of adult decision making once they gain physical adulthood. Tom, Neelix, and Harry were honorable men and would not have exploited vulnerable individuals. And Janeway (and Chakotay in the B&A timeline) wouldn't have allowed it. So no accusations. But, Linnis and Andrew were sort of important in the story, but as often happened, Harry didn't have that much to do. They could have subbed anyone for him, and the plot wouldn't have changed much.

 

[Is It Over Yet?]

I do think that Kes's brief lifespan could have been worked with.

I agree. An honorable death in service to one's friends can be a great ending for a character when written smartly. Had Kes stuck around, and had TPTB done something with the character over the course of the series, a final group of Suspiria vs VOY/Kes showdown episodes with Kes sacrificing herself to get her friend's home could have been good.

 

[Lynx]

The following subjects have come up in another topic, both concerning Kes's lifespan.

While @Lynx has some valid points, and @Laura Cynthia Chambers has some intriguing ideas, I do think that Kes's brief lifespan could have been worked with. However, it would have required a team of showrunners who were committed to developing the character as she lived out her life. The Voyager showrunners were committed to the exact opposite.

As for Harry/Linnis, it's established that the Ocampa are fully capable of adult decision making once they gain physical adulthood. Tom, Neelix, and Harry were honorable men and would not have exploited vulnerable individuals. And Janeway (and Chakotay in the B&A timeline) wouldn't have allowed it. So no accusations. But, Linnis and Andrew were sort of important in the story, but as often happened, Harry didn't have that much to do. They could have subbed anyone for him, and the plot wouldn't have changed much.

No, the nine year lifespan was crap. It was unrealistic. A species like that would never have developed into more than primates.

Not to mention that it hampered the character.

I agree. An honorable death in service to one's friends can be a great ending for a character when written smartly. Had Kes stuck around, and had TPTB done something with the character over the course of the series, a final group of Suspiria vs VOY/Kes showdown episodes with Kes sacrificing herself to get her friend's home could have been good.

I often wonder why Trek fans are so obsessed with death, sometimes even unnecessary and downright destructive annihilation of great characters.

 

[Oddish]

I agree. An honorable death in service to one's friends can be a great ending for a character when written smartly.

I know. I actually managed it in one of my stories, much of which was lost when the site it was on went down. I had a former boyfriend of the protagonist who was an awkward third wheel, and no suitable character to pair him with. Revealing thst he married an unnamed person (no real satisfaction for the audience but it defuses the love triangle) was theoretically possible, but instead I had him die heroically, late in the story. And I milked his death all the way to the epilogue, which took place at his burial vault.

No, the nine year lifespan was crap. It was unrealistic. A species like that would never have developed into more than primates.

Realistically, yes. But Trek as a fandom has long played fast and loose with realism. I mean, they turned the captain into a salamander for crying out loud.

Not to mention that it hampered the character.

I think that, if Kes was given over to writers who were ready to have the character grow and evolve over the tempestuous course her abbreviated lifetime, it could have worked. Kes's story could have been a microcosm of the great journey that is life.

However, on a static show like VOY... yeah.

I often wonder why Trek fans are so obsessed with death, sometimes even unnecessary and downright destructive annihilation of great characters.

Because if any moment could be the last, for a fleshed out character that you're invested in, there is real tension in the story.

 

[Lynx]

I know. I actually managed it in one of my stories, much of which was lost when the site it was on went down. I had a former boyfriend of the protagonist who was an awkward third wheel, and no suitable character to pair him with. Revealing thst he married an unnamed person (no real satisfaction for the audience but it defuses the love triangle) was theoretically possible, but instead I had him die heroically, late in the story. And I milked his death all the way to the epilogue, which took place at his burial vault.

The characters I have in my stories never become "third wheels", they all have a certain role to play.

However, I do have a problem here because most of my characters are made up of people who exist in real life, people I have met, people who are my friends and even people I dislike.

Some of the characters are more and less real life persons, some of them are combinations of people I've met and characters from other series.

But I do have a problem here. One character who shows up from time to time in my stories are based of a person I knew who dies two years ago. I haven't decided if i should keep the character or kill him off.

Realistically, yes. But Trek as a fandom has long played fast and loose with realism. I mean, they turned the captain into a salamander for crying out loud.

Yes, Threshold was a really stupid episode.

Whe I watch it, i always pretend that it was a nightmare which Tom Paris had after eating too much of Neelix's food. If I pretend that, the episode is actually funny.

I think that, if Kes was given over to writers who were ready to have the character grow and evolve over the tempestuous course her abbreviated lifetime, it could have worked. Kes's story could have been a microcosm of the great journey that is life.

However, on a static show like VOY... yeah.

But even better if we have Kes alive and well and ready for new episodes in possible series or future books.

I mean Seven Of Nine is showing up in every possible new series and book so why couldn't Kes be a permanent character at least in the books?

Because if any moment could be the last, for a fleshed out character that you're invested in, there is real tension in the story.

Maybe, but it's just too much of it in Star Trek.

I mean, there are series I've watched when one main character has been killed off and fans are furious about it. But not Star Trek! When it comes to Star Trek, fans are furious if anyone questions why the character was killed off.

Just look at the Trek books where our favorites from TNG, DS9 and VOY either are killed off for no reason at all or turned into uninteresting nobodys. All to make rooms for books based on the two worst Star Trek series ever, DSC and PIC.

 

[Uncle Sock]

A species like that would never have developed into more than primates.

Like I said in the other thread:

We don't know for sure. Ocampa are alien. We know next to nothing about their evolution, their biology, metabolism... In this great big universe of ours I think it's entirely possible for a lifeform to be as developed as we are with a lifespan of nine years only.

 

[Oddish]

The characters I have in my stories never become "third wheels", they all have a certain role to play.

Oh, this character had an important role. He was a fast friend to my protagonist, and then a boyfriend to her for a time, an awkward ex when she met up with her true love, and her comrade at arms in the penultimate battle. He died a hero in that fight, and his death was still echoing in her mind as she went into the last battle.

I had originally planned to have him live, but then realized that I had two equally bad choices: one, have him still be a life-long single when they met again, with all the awkwardness and silent guilt trips. Two, have him be married to a woman who was never seen before then, which (though realistic IRL) would feel contrived.

But I do have a problem here. One character who shows up from time to time in my stories are based of a person I knew who dies two years ago. I haven't decided if i should keep the character or kill him off.

It's a character, not the real person. If you choose to keep them around, you can be honoring that person's legacy. But it's your choice.

Whe I watch it, i always pretend that it was a nightmare which Tom Paris had after eating too much of Neelix's food. If I pretend that, the episode is actually funny.

Those leola root enchiladas will really mess with you... I think either I got that from you or vice versa.

But even better if we have Kes alive and well and ready for new episodes in possible series or future books.

If Jennifer Lien hadn't fallen on hard times, I'm sure some series or other would have brought Kes back by now.

I mean, there are series I've watched when one main character has been killed off and fans are furious about it. But not Star Trek! When it comes to Star Trek, fans are furious if anyone questions why the character was killed off.

Not in my experience. Closest thing I've seen is when I complain about Jadzia being killed off, they say they like Ezri.

I like Ezri too. But I think she was too good a character to waste on one season.

Just look at the Trek books where our favorites from TNG, DS9 and VOY either are killed off for no reason at all or turned into uninteresting nobodys. All to make rooms for books based on the two worst Star Trek series ever, DSC and PIC.

Trek has gone in several new directions, and we're not going to like them all. But I'm still glad they try new things.

We don't know for sure. Ocampa are alien. We know next to nothing about their evolution, their biology, metabolism... In this great big universe of ours I think it's entirely possible for a lifeform to be as developed as we are with a lifespan of nine years only.

Who knows? Maybe on some other world, where the inhabitants live 300 or 400 years, they look at humanity with its paltry 70-80 and think we could never achieve proper sentience in that period.

 

[fireproof78]

When it comes to Star Trek, fans are furious if anyone questions why the character was killed off.

Genes vision. People die and that is accepted as a part of life. We have evolved.

Trek has gone in several new directions, and we're not going to like them all. But I'm still glad they try new things.

Indeed, yes. Which is why Kes' nine year life span was an opportunity for exploration and creativity. I have a variety of ideas as to getting past it, but you use the tools to your advantage for drama.

 

[Is It Over Yet?]

I think the exploration of getting older as the show's seven years went on could have been interesting. I'm sure that was their intention. That's why they set nine as being the upwards age of the Ocampa since Kes was 2-ish when we met her. The assumption being the series would last 7 years. I'm not saying she needed to die but she could have ascended in exhaustion as she did in "The Gift" after the final Suspiria battle and given Voyager it's final push home. She would have been free to return after ascension, as Sisko did in lit form eventually, or in canon on screen if they chose to. Obviously, this is not the direction they went for reasons but I think it's a plausible what if.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

I think Kes' lifespan is probably the most interesting thing about her.

I kind of like the anti-fan fiction route that the show took. Her powers grew too fast and flared up, instead of transforming she was left alone and without guidance for her abilities.

Making it all the way back to Ocampa with only 3 years left on the clock is a tough task, she either made it back and died back home shortly thereafter or died in the shuttle en route.

I do presume that some of the remaining Voyager crew might have met up in 2379 at the expected time of her death.

 

[Lynx]

Like I said in the other thread:

We don't know for sure. Ocampa are alien. We know next to nothing about their evolution, their biology, metabolism... In this great big universe of ours I think it's entirely possible for a lifeform to be as developed as we are with a lifespan of nine years only.

Maybe.
But I still see the nine-year lifespan as highly unrealistic and contra-productive.

Oh, this character had an important role. He was a fast friend to my protagonist, and then a boyfriend to her for a time, an awkward ex when she met up with her true love, and her comrade at arms in the penultimate battle. He died a hero in that fight, and his death was still echoing in her mind as she went into the last battle.

Well, it's your story and your choice.

I had originally planned to have him live, but then realized that I had two equally bad choices: one, have him still be a life-long single when they met again, with all the awkwardness and silent guilt trips. Two, have him be married to a woman who was never seen before then, which (though realistic IRL) would feel contrived.

It's a character, not the real person. If you choose to keep them around, you can be honoring that person's legacy. But it's your choice.

That's true. In fact, even if my characters in many cases are taken from real life, they are not the same because I always change them a bit in order to make them unique.

Those leola root enchiladas will really mess with you... I think either I got that from you or vice versa.

I do think that I was the one who came up with the "nightmare scenario" for Threshold. But I'm sure that you was one of the first to read about it.

If Jennifer Lien hadn't fallen on hard times, I'm sure some series or other would have brought Kes back by now.

Maybe. But those in charge were very decisive when it came to destroying the character and few people dare to defy them.

Not in my experience. Closest thing I've seen is when I complain about Jadzia being killed off, they say they like Ezri.

I like Ezri too. But I think she was too good a character to waste on one season.

I like Ezri but I think that they made a mistake to kill off Jadzia. Her death was meaningless in a way.

If the actress wanted to quit, they could have come up with a scenario in which she got a post on the Enterprise, then she could have showed up again inn the last episode of DS9.

Ezri could have been her sister or some other relative.

Trek has gone in several new directions, and we're not going to like them all. But I'm still glad they try new things.

I'm happy that Star Trek is still alive but I don't like the direction it has taken since VOY ended.

They should have made series like Starfleet Academy and Section 31 after VOY and then have come with PIC in 2006. Then they could have followed up PIC with other intersting series.

There were a lot of "loose threads" worth to follow up after TNG, DS9 and VOY, like what happened on Cardassia and Bajor after the Dominion War, what happened to the Tamarians, did the Founders become peaceful after Odo linked with them, what happeened to the world with the virus Bashir found a cure for, did Zek really manage to change the Ferengi, what happened to the aliens in the TNG episode Suspicions and so on.

Instead they came up with a mediocre retro series, some mediocre movies and the two worst series ever in Star Trek and now they are trying to build a legacy from those two horrible series.

Who knows? Maybe on some other world, where the inhabitants live 300 or 400 years, they look at humanity with its paltry 70-80 and think we could never achieve proper sentience in that period.

And they would be right!

Genes vision. People die and that is accepted as a part of life. We have evolved.

People dies and it's acvcepted as a part of life, yes. But i don't like to have unnecessary death scenarios thrown in my face over and over again, especially not when it comes to favorite characters. In fact, I have had more than enough of deaths around me since my childhood and sometimes I just get tired of it.

Gene Roddenberry was a great writer and creator and I like him for that, after all he did create the wonderful Star Trek.

But I don't see him as a god.

Indeed, yes. Which is why Kes' nine year life span was an opportunity for exploration and creativity. I have a variety of ideas as to getting past it, but you use the tools to your advantage for drama.

I found it unrealistic and hampering for the character.

But I have already solved that problem, it took me five minutes to create a scenario in which she got a human lifespan and one minute to get rid of the events in that episode in season 6 of VOY.

I think the exploration of getting older as the show's seven years went on could have been interesting. I'm sure that was their intention. That's why they set nine as being the upwards age of the Ocampa since Kes was 2-ish when we met her. The assumption being the series would last 7 years. I'm not saying she needed to die but she could have ascended in exhaustion as she did in "The Gift" after the final Suspiria battle and given Voyager it's final push home. She would have been free to return after ascension, as Sisko did in lit form eventually, or in canon on screen if they chose to. Obviously, this is not the direction they went for reasons but I think it's a plausible what if.

It was just a bad idea. Something about "oh, we haven't had that in Star Trek before".
And when it didn't work, they didn't have the skill or will to come up with a solution, even if they did hint at it in Cold Fire and Before And After.

I think Kes' lifespan is probably the most interesting thing about her.

I kind of like the anti-fan fiction route that the show took. Her powers grew too fast and flared up, instead of transforming she was left alone and without guidance for her abilities.

Making it all the way back to Ocampa with only 3 years left on the clock is a tough task, she either made it back and died back home shortly thereafter or died in the shuttle en route.

I do presume that some of the remaining Voyager crew might have met up in 2379 at the expected time of her death.

No, it was all destructive and stupid.

What they should have focused on was Kes's personality, her will to learn and explore, her way to attack problems from another angle, her curiosity, wit, kindness, determination and mental powers.

That was what made the character intersting, not som half-witted death scenario.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe. But those in charge were very decisive when it came to destroying the character and few people dare to defy them.

I know what you mean. Harry's character was likewise destroyed, just in a different way.

I do think that I was the one who came up with the "nightmare scenario" for Threshold. But I'm sure that you was one of the first to read about it.

Well, OK. But the leola root enchiladas were my idea.

I like Ezri but I think that they made a mistake to kill off Jadzia. Her death was meaningless in a way.

If the actress wanted to quit, they could have come up with a scenario in which she got a post on the Enterprise, then she could have showed up again inn the last episode of DS9.

Or just had her posted to another ship and been in and out. Like Terry Farrell wanted.

Ezri could have been her sister or some other relative.

Or saved for another series.

There were a lot of "loose threads" worth to follow up after TNG, DS9 and VOY, like what happened on Cardassia and Bajor after the Dominion War, what happened to the Tamarians, did the Founders become peaceful after Odo linked with them, what happeened to the world with the virus Bashir found a cure for, did Zek really manage to change the Ferengi, what happened to the aliens in the TNG episode Suspicions and so on.

The Ferengi should never have been changed so much. Female equality could have been managed with a few added lines of dialogue and a rework of "Profit and Lace". But the changes added in "The Dogs of War" were unnecessary. Let the Klingons be warriors, and let the Ferengi be capitalist D-bags.

I actually wrote a proposed 8th season for DS9. It featured Sisko's return, added Weyoun to the main cast, allowed most of the departing characters to return for an episode, and resolved the "what happens when the Romulans find out they were hoodwinked" question.

But I have already solved that problem, it took me five minutes to create a scenario in which she got a human lifespan and one minute to get rid of the events in that episode in season 6 of VOY.

Took me about 30 to rewrite "Nightingale" to include a non-abusive Janeway, demonstrable character growth for Harry, and a way to give him that promotion that felt fresh and different. It's sad when unpaid amateurs like us can thoroughly outperform the professionals.

What they should have focused on was Kes's personality, her will to learn and explore, her way to attack problems from another angle, her curiosity, wit, kindness, determination and mental powers.

A lot of that came from her being extremely young. She had no prejudices and far fewer preconceptions to deal with.

 

[The Hanuk Kai]

"Before and After" shows that the Kes premise wouldn't work? I don't buy it. This is one of the strongest episodes of the first three season and a blueprint for what was to come. The actress was strong. If there were a few Harry Kim as son-in-law was perhaps a little skeevy, but it wasn't a necessary outgrowth of Kes' premise. It was just a bad choice that could have been ignored.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

It's sad when unpaid amateurs like us can thoroughly outperform the professionals.

Sad but true.

And even sadder is when videos made from fan script by AI are beyter than official ones (like it is in Star Wars now).

 

[Oddish]

"Before and After" shows that the Kes premise wouldn't work? I don't buy it. This is one of the strongest episodes of the first three season and a blueprint for what was to come. The actress was strong. If there were a few Harry Kim as son-in-law was perhaps a little skeevy, but it wasn't a necessary outgrowth of Kes' premise. It was just a bad choice that could have been ignored.

If Before and After had been the blueprint for Kes instead of a one-off, it would have been more likely reworked a bit. For instance, Ocampa-human hybrids would likely have had a longer lifespan, so Linnis would likely have still been too young to marry anyone. Problem is, they'd already played the "kid grows up super fast" card with Naomi.