Why Didn't Harry Get Promoted?

[fireproof78]

the prime timeline, the year of hell was deleted by the Big Red Reset Button. Yes, it worked veey well there, but they used it way too much, in situations where it didn't work. Even at the end of the series. That's why the "Harry the eternal ensign" trope still exists: if the Endgame timeline had been canon, it was debunked.

In the B&A timeline, the year of hell actually happened. Janeway was one of the many casualties. Hence, Captain Chakotay, Lieutenant Kim, and Security Officer Neelix.

Honestly, I wish the B and A timeline would show up with possibilities for the Voyager crew. In some ways, it did, with Tom becoming a family man and growing up really. No longer a rebel but a responsible adult.

Harry could have used similar treatment.

 

[Uncle Sock]

Disagree and I say this with Spock as my favorite Trek character. But he is not irreplaceable.

Sir! You wound me!

But you're right.

 

[Oddish]

When it comes to the B&A timeline, I'm happy that nothing of it happened inh the real timeline.
The events in it were horrible. What was exciting and interesting in it was the flashbacks to Kes's life before Voyager but that's all.

I'm surprised. Given that Voyager kept Kes in that timeline, I would think you would approve.

And i'm not gonna go into the relationship between Linnis and Harry here.

OK, that was questionable. I think that Linnis should have had a longer lifespan (maybe not human norm, but maybe three decades instead of one). Which would put her in her early teens in the episode.

I think the reason for that was to emphasize the implications of relationships between species of so different lifespan. Kind of like when they had Sarek marry two human women and have both of them grow old over the course of his much longer lifetime.

Honestly, I wish the B and A timeline would show up with possibilities for the Voyager crew. In some ways, it did, with Tom becoming a family man and growing up really. No longer a rebel but a responsible adult.

Harry could have used similar treatment.

Harry just needed development of some sort, any sort.

 

[Ragitsu]

It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no admiral's son, son
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no favorite son, no

 

[Frostscape One]

It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no admiral's son, son
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no favorite son, no

Funny enough, "FAVORITE SON" is a Kim episode. (A bad one, too. It's won the 'Most Disliked' season 3 VOY games 5 out of the 6 times it has been played.)

 

[Ragitsu]

Funny enough, "FAVORITE SON" is a Kim episode. (A bad one, too. It's won the 'Most Disliked' season 3 VOY games 5 out of the 6 times it has been played.)

Yep; I swapped "fortunate" for "favorite".

 

[Oddish]

Funny enough, "FAVORITE SON" is a Kim episode. (A bad one, too. It's won the 'Most Disliked' season 3 VOY games 5 out of the 6 times it has been played.)

And it deserved it. That was the episode where the writers tried to take Harry in a new direction (the way Nog and Bashir were), and were shut down by either showrunner or executive interference. They were, in essence, forced to let Harry's character stagnate.

 

[Lynx]

I'm surprised. Given that Voyager kept Kes in that timeline, I would think you would approve.

Yes, they kept Kes but messed up a lot of other things.

Too many good main characters killed off and not doing anything about the stupid nine-year lifespan. Plus the Kim-Linnis relationship.

OK, that was questionable. I think that Linnis should have had a longer lifespan (maybe not human norm, but maybe three decades instead of one). Which would put her in her early teens in the episode.

I think the reason for that was to emphasize the implications of relationships between species of so different lifespan. Kind of like when they had Sarek marry two human women and have both of them grow old over the course of his much longer lifetime.

And they made a mess of everything.
If they had started to correct the silly nine year lifespan thing, not killed off too many of the main characters and avoided the Kim-Linnis relationship, then maybe.

Harry just needed development of some sort, any sort.

I agree with that.

And it deserved it. That was the episode where the writers tried to take Harry in a new direction (the way Nog and Bashir were), and were shut down by either showrunner or executive interference. They were, in essence, forced to let Harry's character stagnate.

Am I the only one who like Favorite Son?

OK, it had certain flaws, like the whole "Kim is an alien from Taresia" and everybody on the ship buys that to the point that they more and less abandon him there.

They should have sorted out the whole "contaminated with foreign genes" thing and had Kim and maybe Paris too being stranded on the surface for some reason with those women who weren't so friendly after all.

What was good with the episode was that it was a bit spooky and that Kim for the fist time since Non Sequitur became involved in a real adventure.

 

[fireproof78]

And it deserved it. That was the episode where the writers tried to take Harry in a new direction (the way Nog and Bashir were), and were shut down by either showrunner or executive interference. They were, in essence, forced to let Harry's character stagnate.

And the story suffers from the sheer craziness of the crew just accepting this idea. I don't find it very good way to develop Kim then yank it away.

 

[Oddish]

Too many good main characters killed off and not doing anything about the stupid nine-year lifespan. Plus the Kim-Linnis relationship.

My theory regarding that episode was that they had decided to dismiss Jennifer Lien at that point. So, they decided to take her character's main gimmick and just turn it up to 11 for one episode. This includes her living out a full life in those 9 years.

Included in that was exploring how romances might take place between races of such varied lifespan. Some of it works: Tom's story of his brief time with Kes, for instance. But they also wanted to play with the inevitable consequences of Ocampa generations being so much shorter than human ones. One reason why I gave the Harry/Linnis ship a low rating despite my really liking Tom/Kes is that Harry could have been subbed out with anyone and it would barely have mattered. While Andrew and Linnis were moderately important early on, all we noticed about Harry was he had two gold pips instead of one.

Had they kept Kes and had her lifespan proceed normally, Harry/Linnis could never have worked. We would have seen her as a small child.

OK, it had certain flaws, like the whole "Kim is an alien from Taresia" and everybody on the ship buys that to the point that they more and less abandon him there.

It was flawed, but salvageable. See below.

What was good with the episode was that it was a bit spooky and that Kim for the fist time since Non Sequitur became involved in a real adventure.

It actually did have some good bits. If not for the interference and the mandated punch of the Big Red Reset Button, it had real potential.

And the story suffers from the sheer craziness of the crew just accepting this idea. I don't find it very good way to develop Kim then yank it away.

They didn't have to yank it away. Just have it revealed that NO, Harry was not born Taresian. YES, he caught a retrovirus that caused him to gain their traits... but the modification to make to the story is that the EMH can't undo the retrovirus's progressive effects. You still have the "Harry's turning into an alien" storyline, but it makes more sense.

 

[Lynx]

My theory regarding that episode was that they had decided to dismiss Jennifer Lien at that point. So, they decided to take her character's main gimmick and just turn it up to 11 for one episode. This includes her living out a full life in those 9 years.

I'm not absolutely sure of that.
If we look at season 3, it seems like Kes were about to have a more prominent role in the series.

We had episodes like Warlord with focus on Kes, we had The Swarm where Kes played an important role when it came to saving The Doctor, we had Before And After which focused on her background story and we had Scorpion#1 where she also was one of the main characters. We could actually count Sacred Ground too in which Kes isn't that active but still plays an important part since Janeway is ready to sacrifice herself to save Kes's life.

We also had discussions about how to prolong her lifespan in Before And After and such discussions started already in the (excellent) season 2 episode Cold Fire.

Some sources states that Lien didn't know anything about being fired until the beginning of the filming of season 4 started and that Wang was on his way out. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the truth.

Included in that was exploring how romances might take place between races of such varied lifespan. Some of it works: Tom's story of his brief time with Kes, for instance. But they also wanted to play with the inevitable consequences of Ocampa generations being so much shorter than human ones. One reason why I gave the Harry/Linnis ship a low rating despite my really liking Tom/Kes is that Harry could have been subbed out with anyone and it would barely have mattered. While Andrew and Linnis were moderately important early on, all we noticed about Harry was he had two gold pips instead of one.

I agree on that one.

But at that point, they should have realized that the nine-year lifespan wasn't a good idea and sorted it out. In fact, they may have realized that already in season 2 because it was seldom mentioned in that season and afterwards. Maybe Before And After was a last attempt to do something with that scenario and then they also had prolonging her lifespan as an alternate if it turened out that there was no way to salvage the nine-year lifespan.

And yes, in that alternate timeline, Harry got a promotion. Why was it so difficult to accomplish in the "real" timeline?

Had they kept Kes and had her lifespan proceed normally, Harry/Linnis could never have worked. We would have seen her as a small child.

Which would had been better.

It actually did have some good bits. If not for the interference and the mandated punch of the Big Red Reset Button, it had real potential.

Exactly what I think too. And it was actually a spooky and quite exciting episode.

They didn't have to yank it away. Just have it revealed that NO, Harry was not born Taresian. YES, he caught a retrovirus that caused him to gain their traits... but the modification to make to the story is that the EMH can't undo the retrovirus's progressive effects. You still have the "Harry's turning into an alien" storyline, but it makes more sense.

I agree on this.

 

[Frostscape One]

I'm not absolutely sure of that.
If we look at season 3, it seems like Kes were about to have a more prominent role in the series.

We had episodes like Warlord with focus on Kes, we had The Swarm where Kes played an important role when it came to saving The Doctor, we had Before And After which focused on her background story and we had Scorpion#1 where she also was one of the main characters. We could actually count Sacred Ground too in which Kes isn't that active but still plays an important part since Janeway is ready to sacrifice herself to save Kes's life.

We also had discussions about how to prolong her lifespan in Before And After and such discussions started already in the (excellent) season 2 episode Cold Fire.

Some sources states that Lien didn't know anything about being fired until the beginning of the filming of season 4 started and that Wang was on his way out. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the truth.



I agree on that one.

But at that point, they should have realized that the nine-year lifespan wasn't a good idea and sorted it out. In fact, they may have realized that already in season 2 because it was seldom mentioned in that season and afterwards. Maybe Before And After was a last attempt to do something with that scenario and then they also had prolonging her lifespan as an alternate if it turened out that there was no way to salvage the nine-year lifespan.

And yes, in that alternate timeline, Harry got a promotion. Why was it so difficult to accomplish in the "real" timeline?


Which would had been better.


Exactly what I think too. And it was actually a spooky and quite exciting episode.


I agree on this.

"SACRED GROUND" is most certainly not a Kes episode. Except for the first couple minutes and the last seconds after Janeway carried her to the field, she was unconscious the entire episode. "SACRED GROUND" is fully a Janeway episode.

 

[Uncle Sock]

But at that point, they should have realized that the nine-year lifespan wasn't a good idea and sorted it out.

I see this a little differently. For me, Kes’s short lifespan actually made her more interesting as a character. And even though Before and After is one of my all-time favorite episodes, I’ve always felt a bit unsettled by the idea of trying to extend her lifespan to something closer to a human’s.

Humans live roughly nine times longer than Ocampa—so it would be like giving a human a lifespan of around 700 years. That’s a pretty dramatic change.

Personally, I think they could have leaned even more into her shorter lifespan. It might have been fun to hear Kes say things like, “Everyone feels so much slower,” or “Why does it take everyone so long to learn things?” Instead of extending her lifespan, which never quite worked for me, I wish they had explored other angles. If the goal was to keep Jennifer Lien on the show, I feel like there were plenty of other creative ways they could have done that.

 

[Is It Over Yet?]

This thread is becoming the "Catch All" VOY discussion thread.

I see a lot of cool topics that are worthy of further exploration. Feel free to break some out before they get lost in the shuffle.

• Kes' short life span - Extend it or lean into it?
• Before & After vs Year of Hell - Kim Linnis Yuck?
• Should Harry have been a dept head?
• Is our Harry the real Harry or just a bad copy?
• How dare they not show us the conclusion of the ping pong tournament!

 

[Lynx]

"SACRED GROUND" is most certainly not a Kes episode. Except for the first couple minutes and the last seconds after Janeway carried her to the field, she was unconscious the entire episode. "SACRED GROUND" is fully a Janeway episode.

But it's definitely about Kes and how janeway actually risked her own life just to save Kes.

I see this a little differently. For me, Kes’s short lifespan actually made her more interesting as a character. And even though Before and After is one of my all-time favorite episodes, I’ve always felt a bit unsettled by the idea of trying to extend her lifespan to something closer to a human’s.

Humans live roughly nine times longer than Ocampa—so it would be like giving a human a lifespan of around 700 years. That’s a pretty dramatic change.

Personally, I think they could have leaned even more into her shorter lifespan. It might have been fun to hear Kes say things like, “Everyone feels so much slower,” or “Why does it take everyone so long to learn things?” Instead of extending her lifespan, which never quite worked for me, I wish they had explored other angles. If the goal was to keep Jennifer Lien on the show, I feel like there were plenty of other creative ways they could have done that.

I see the nine-year lifespan as a total waste which actually was hampering for the character.

Sort of a stupid idea, like "Oh we haven't had that one before". Beings with such a short lifespan would never develope into more than primates, something which those in charge should have thought off before coming up with that idea.

Not to mention the "Ocampa one-child syndrome" which would have resulted in the demise of the population.

They should have focused on Kes's personality instead. Her will to learn and explore, her ability to solve problems by attacking them from another angle, her strong will, curiosity, kindness and determination plus her mental abilities instead.

Not to mention what a waste it would have been to kill her off after nine years instead of keeping her as a prominent character in the series and books.

Unfortunately they almost did that by wasting her after only three seasons and then bring her back only to humiliate and destroy her in the worst TV episode that's ever been made.

This thread is becoming the "Catch All" VOY discussion thread.

I see a lot of cool topics that are worthy of further exploration. Feel free to break some out before they get lost in the shuffle.

• Kes' short life span - Extend it or lean into it?
• Before & After vs Year of Hell - Kim Linnis Yuck?
• Should Harry have been a dept head?
• Is our Harry the real Harry or just a bad copy?
• How dare they not show us the conclusion of the ping pong tournament!

I think the last topic is the most intersting. The tought of that ping-pong tournament and who won it has given me many sleepless nights.

But honestly, one topic which would be worth an own thread is that video about Janeway and possible suffering from PSTD. There were some interesting things in that video which would be worth a deeper analysis.

 

[Uncle Sock]

Beings with such a short lifespan would never develope into more than primates

We don't know for sure. Ocampa are alien. We know next to nothing about their evolution, their biology, metabolism... In this great big universe of ours I think it's entirely possible for a lifeform to be as developed as we are with a lifespan of nine years only.

 

[Oddish]

• Kes' short life span - Extend it or lean into it?
• Before & After vs Year of Hell - Kim Linnis Yuck?
• Should Harry have been a dept head?
• Is our Harry the real Harry or just a bad copy?
• How dare they not show us the conclusion of the ping pong tournament!

All good questions. And topics do drift off-course now and then.

I see the nine-year lifespan as a total waste which actually was hampering for the character.

Sort of a stupid idea, like "Oh we haven't had that one before". Beings with such a short lifespan would never develope into more than primates, something which those in charge should have thought off before coming up with that idea.

Star Trek often hits us with things that really don't make much sense, if you devote any thought to them at all. From Kirk condemning at least two species he visited to extinction to Ferenginar skipping centuries of evolution toward enlightenment due to Ishka seducing Zek, so much of it is nuts. Including the idiotic phrase "somebody gotta be duh ensign".

And ironically, Trekkies are just the type of people who DO devote thought to such things.

Not to mention the "Ocampa one-child syndrome" which would have resulted in the demise of the population.

No species, sentient or otherwise, could have even evolved under such a condition.

That issue could have been salvaged... simoly make it so that Ocampa HAVE to reproduce at their initial elogium, otherwise they become infertile. Once they produce their first kid, they can have more afterward.

They should have focused on Kes's personality instead. Her will to learn and explore, her ability to solve problems by attacking them from another angle, her strong will, curiosity, kindness and determination plus her mental abilities instead.

There was a lot of untapped potential in the character, as in the others. Kes was far from the only VOY character whose potential was neglected. She wasn't even the worst, IMHO.

Unfortunately they almost did that by wasting her after only three seasons and then bring her back only to humiliate and destroy her in the worst TV episode that's ever been made.

It has some stiff competition, even within Star Trek. At least no one turned into a salamander.

I think the last topic is the most intersting. The tought of that ping-pong tournament and who won it has given me many sleepless nights.

Maybe Harry won. And the rest of the crew was so pissed off, they threatened to go on strike if Janeway ever promoted him. It's a dumb explanation, but all the other explanations are dumber.

 

[Adventerprise]

The lifespan conversation is continuing @ https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/a-few-things-to-discuss-about-kes.318987/

 

[Frostscape One]

But it's definitely about Kes and how janeway actually risked her own life just to save Kes.

Definitely not about Kes. "SACRED GROUND" was about Janeway and her staunch belief that science is always the answer rather than accepting faith having value, too. Janeway risking her life for Kes is the plot device to get to what the story is about, which is Janeway coming to accept that science is NOT always the answer.

 

[DonIago]

It's easily demonstrated that "Sacred Ground" isn't about Kes by asking whether Janeway would have done the same thing for any other member of her crew. The answer, hopefully, is yes...which admittedly does rhyme with Kes.