A Federation Community

[T'Girl]

I would also like to incorporate elements of Moore's Utopia.

Slavery?

 

[Paradise City]

I think to see Roddenberry as a visionary is to misunderstand him.

I think we have an embryonic "Federation" underway with the UN. Roddenberry, either by design or by osmosis, made that union cast-iron and binding, replaced nations with planets and earth with space. Roddenberry's genius is evolving a kind of UN in space and producing a show and making it all vivid in time for the technicolor era. Roddenberry innovated rather created. The constituent elements were all there, he just kind of followed a particular logic and brought it vividly to life on screen.

I think you run up against human nature with Federation principles. Many federation principles are worthy principles to aspire to and to strive for and are useful to uplift humanity to a point. But don't mistake that for the idea they can ever be actualised in whole terms. You'll never root out mankind's more avaristic nature. It's intrinsic to human existence.

And the show itself bears this out. You've got Admirals Cartwright, Pressman, Leyton. You've got the Maquis. You've got section 31. All these guys someway contradict the utopia as extolled by Picard to that 21st century financier in season one of TNG.

 

[at Quark's]

the Federation is based on post scarcity economics which we have yet to achieve

I doubt (at least I hope not) that the Federation is "based on "post scarcity. Rather the Federation is an example of social co-operation and acceptance of diversity, diversity of a degree that we on Earth have never seen.

It's a assemblage of multiple distinct societies that somehow get along with each other, without having to lose who they are and becoming a single culture in the process. There are instances in different series that show the Federation members don't necessarily even like each other.

A community that recognizes that there will be an ongoing need to protect and defend itself from those who exist outside.

A society that exhibits a enjoyment of life and experiences. Social interaction, music, art, sports, adventure.

I truly don't feel that the Federation has achieved "post scarcity economics," but they do have a materially comfortable life. For a modern day Federation a replicator type device would not be a requirement. Besides, both the Klingons and the Cardassians possess replicator technology, and neither society are wonderful examples of "desirable cultures." Replicator technology is not the hinge pin to a Federation.

Indeed it isn't, if only because of the fact that the Federation probably existed before the replicator was invented. But I never said anything of the kind, I said the Federation was based on post-scarcity economics. I'm not sure why the two are automatically assumed to be identical.

Though, I might still be wrong there. It could very well be that at least during the early years of the Federation, economics were still based upon the concept of scarcity. However, we do know that things like poverty were eliminated long before that.

The point I was trying to make is that before attempting something idealistic like a Federation, you'd probably have to be rather well off as a society, materially. I think that really is a prerequisite. "Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral". Western countries are concerning themselves (and even then very partially and hypocritically) with ideals like the environment, animal rights and human rights. Do poor countries do so? Or, suppose we weren't as affluent as we are, would we have worried about such matters? I really don't think so; we would have been far to busy with struggling to survive, or with getting rich.

So, affluence to the point of achieving post-scarcity economics? Perhaps not. But a rather high standard probably would be required. And in the long run, having such an incredible powerhouse of an economy would go a long way in keeping matters stable. Actually, this was what I meant when I used the word 'based': not as an absolute prerequisite without which the Federation couldn't have formed, but as something that keeps the Federation rolling as smoothly as it does in the long run.

Also, the reverse isn't true: it's very possible to have all the material ingredients in place and still have a dystopian society, like the Borg, or some alien races.

because I think unless humanity changes profoundly, there will always eventually be elements of power and corruption that make this kind of utopia infeasible

Such people and concepts will likely be with us alway. A society should be able to withstand and control these elements, and not depend on them being absent.
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Should be able, yes. But do you know of any human (large-scale) society from our past or present that actually could, in the long run ?