A couple of First Contact criticisms.

[Gojira]

I just watched the movie again this morning. One scene has driven me crazy since I fist saw the movie. Yes, it is a minor nit pick but it bugs me.

When the Captain returns to the Enterprise bridge with Data after detecting the Borg and learning the environmental controls are going wacko on deck 16 Picard tells Worf to seal of all entry to deck 16 (roughly paraphrased) So, now that Worf has his orders what does he do next? He walks over to his consul station and just stands there!!! I blame that on the director. It would have been more plausible for him to momentarily leave the bridge to carry out that order or be heard passing on that order to someone in the decks below.

I know it is not a big deal but it is one of those things I noticed that bugs me.


The other thing is why don't any of the phaser rifles vaporize the Borg? You would think it would make it harder for them to adapt if they're being vaporized! Yes, the ones being vaporized would not be able to adapt but I would think that it would take more time for the rest of the collective to learn to adapt to phaser settings that vaporize you.

 

[Christopher]

The modern Trek shows/films seem to have stopped using the "vaporize" setting on weapons, perhaps because it was too scientifically absurd (where does the mass go?) or because it was deemed unnecessary since it was only invented for purposes of '60s censorship practices (to avoid showing blood or corpses) that no longer applied. For whatever reason, it just wasn't a creative conceit they were choosing to employ by that point.

And in-story, I don't see why it would make a difference. The way the Borg "adapt" to weapons fire is by erecting personal shields. There's plenty of Trek lore to demonstrate that disintegration beams can be blocked by force fields as effectively as any other kind of beam.

Even if, for whatever reason, the drones' shields are tailored only to a particular type of beam, I don't see why making it a disintegration beam would make any difference. We know the Borg don't innovate, so any "adaptation" they employ must be based on knowledge assimilated in some prior conquest. Assuming they've assimilated civilizations that knew how to shield against disintegrator rays, they could just as easily adapt to those as to anything else they've ever encountered.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Why would Worf physically go down there to relay the orders though when he could simply do so via computer consul? Not to mention he technically did not have an official position on board the vessel, he was essentially a guest officer. Daniels was leading the resistance tactical team which is why he popped back up tor report and was sent back down again.

 

[Solarbaby]

I think theres lots of auxiliary stations on the Sovereign class with backup officers, especially at battle alert. Perhaps one of them controlled the deck seal. Worf could simply have nodded at someone to do it.

Vaporizing the Borg could be dangerous. It could be liking shooting a gun in a pressure cabin plane. If you miss it could damage the ships equipment or other crew members. But yes it's probably just an oversight.

 

[Gojira]

Why would Worf physically go down there to relay the orders though when he could simply do so via computer consul? Not to mention he technically did not have an official position on board the vessel, he was essentially a guest officer. Daniels was leading the resistance tactical team which is why he popped back up tor report and was sent back down again.

That was one option I mentioned. I would have been fine with him relaying orders via his computer consul but he doesn't even do that! He just stands there...doesn't even press a button. Then as Picard continues talking you can see him lean over the consul and listening but no actions to demonstrate he carried out the orders.

 

[Nick086]

I think theres lots of auxiliary stations on the Sovereign class with backup officers, especially at battle alert. Perhaps one of them controlled the deck seal. Worf could simply have nodded at someone to do it.

Vaporizing the Borg could be dangerous. It could be liking shooting a gun in a pressure cabin plane. If you miss it could damage the ships equipment or other crew members. But yes it's probably just an oversight.

Aren't Romulan and Klingon disruptors set to vaporize any enemies? If phasers and phaser rifles are set on that setting wouldn't drain the phasers energy?

 

[Christopher]

That was one option I mentioned. I would have been fine with him relaying orders via his computer consul but he doesn't even do that!

Computer consul? A foreign government's official representative who's in charge of information technology? I think you mean to refer to a computer console.

Aren't Romulan and Klingon disruptors set to vaporize any enemies? If phasers and phaser rifles are set on that setting wouldn't drain the phasers energy?

Again, I believe the producers of the show had abandoned the use of the "disintegration" conceit by the time FC was made.

And really, if a disintegrator beam literally did vaporize a target, that would be a very, very bad thing for anyone nearby. Vapor has a far lower density than solid or liquid matter, so if a solid or liquid is rapidly turned to vapor, then its volume expands hundreds of times in a very short span of time, pushing aside everything around it with considerable force. This process is better known as exploding. If you literally vaporized a Borg drone or enemy soldier, you would turn them into a person-sized bomb. Definitely something you wouldn't want to do in an enclosed, pressurized chamber like a spaceship, since the overpressure shock would kill you even if it didn't rupture the hull.

So the "disintegration" effect seen in TOS and early TNG (or however long they kept using it) can't be as simple as vaporization. The mass of the target simply seems to cease to exist. The TNG Technical Manual hints that most of the mass of a disintegrated object undergoes "phase transition out of the continuum" or words to that effect -- i.e. it goes into some other dimension. Which was a rather weak justification for a very silly trope.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

The modern Trek shows/films seem to have stopped using the "vaporize" setting on weapons, perhaps because it was too scientifically absurd (where does the mass go?) or because it was deemed unnecessary since it was only invented for purposes of '60s censorship practices (to avoid showing blood or corpses) that no longer applied. For whatever reason, it just wasn't a creative conceit they were choosing to employ by that point.

Later in the movie, when Picard takes the phaser from Lilly, he looks at it and says, "Maximum Setting. If you had fired this, you would have vaporized me." Apparently the writers had not completely abandoned that setting by the time they wrote First Contact.

 

[Nick086]

That was one option I mentioned. I would have been fine with him relaying orders via his computer consul but he doesn't even do that!

Computer consul? A foreign government's official representative who's in charge of information technology? I think you mean to refer to a computer console.

Aren't Romulan and Klingon disruptors set to vaporize any enemies? If phasers and phaser rifles are set on that setting wouldn't drain the phasers energy?

Again, I believe the producers of the show had abandoned the use of the "disintegration" conceit by the time FC was made.

And really, if a disintegrator beam literally did vaporize a target, that would be a very, very bad thing for anyone nearby. Vapor has a far lower density than solid or liquid matter, so if a solid or liquid is rapidly turned to vapor, then its volume expands hundreds of times in a very short span of time, pushing aside everything around it with considerable force. This process is better known as exploding. If you literally vaporized a Borg drone or enemy soldier, you would turn them into a person-sized bomb. Definitely something you wouldn't want to do in an enclosed, pressurized chamber like a spaceship, since the overpressure shock would kill you even if it didn't rupture the hull.

So the "disintegration" effect seen in TOS and early TNG (or however long they kept using it) can't be as simple as vaporization. The mass of the target simply seems to cease to exist. The TNG Technical Manual hints that most of the mass of a disintegrated object undergoes "phase transition out of the continuum" or words to that effect -- i.e. it goes into some other dimension. Which was a rather weak justification for a very silly trope.

hmmm Sub Commander N'Vek was vaporize on the birdge of a Romulan Wabird, by the Helm Officer in TNG episode Face of The Enemy. Nothing bad happen on the bridge where it would cause some kind of a big problem.

 

[Christopher]

Later in the movie, when Picard takes the phaser from Lilly, he looks at it and says, "Maximum Setting. If you had fired this, you would have vaporized me." Apparently the writers had not completely abandoned that setting by the time they wrote First Contact.

Or it was a figure of speech.

hmmm Sub Commander N'Vek was vaporize on the birdge of a Romulan Wabird, by the Helm Officer in TNG episode Face of The Enemy. Nothing bad happen on the bridge where it would cause some kind of a big problem.

Exactly my point: that the way it's been depicted onscreen makes no physical sense. It's a fantasy. Or else, whatever is putatively happening is something rather more complex and abnormal than vaporization, so it shouldn't be described by that word. "Disintegration" is the standard term.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yeah there is no "vaporize" setting on a Starfleet phaser. Kill or stun. As Christopher said Picard used that as a phrase.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

The modern Trek shows/films seem to have stopped using the "vaporize" setting on weapons, perhaps because it was too scientifically absurd (where does the mass go?) or because it was deemed unnecessary since it was only invented for purposes of '60s censorship practices (to avoid showing blood or corpses) that no longer applied. For whatever reason, it just wasn't a creative conceit they were choosing to employ by that point.

And yet I've always thought vaporization was a horrible way to die. The way it's portrayed on screen, it takes about one full second for the person to burn alive. I know the novels have often tried to portray phasers as humane compared to disruptors, but I don't buy it.

Maybe the Federation noticed this and decided to create an interstellar convention banning such weapons.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

The other thing is why don't any of the phaser rifles vaporize the Borg? You would think it would make it harder for them to adapt if they're being vaporized! Yes, the ones being vaporized would not be able to adapt but I would think that it would take more time for the rest of the collective to learn to adapt to phaser settings that vaporize you.

There have been numerous instances of aliens with high tolerance for phaser blasts, to the point that a shot at maximum setting kills them without vaporizing them. Which doesn't make sense, but it is canon. And I believe if you watch Q Who, the Borg are in this class.

 

[Bishop76]

I always really liked the disintegration effect - thought it was a pretty freaky way to die - particularly in the movies where you see Terrell or the Klingon weapons officer slowly evaporating. It's kind of a shame they got rid of this as it's pretty horrifying. Very visceral.

I would say the biggest problem I have with FC though wouldn't be what buttons people are pressing but just the plot in general. Don't get me wrong - I enjoyed it enough as a big, dumb action movie - but to this day I still don't understand why the Borg didn't just go back in time in some remote backwater ass place in the galaxy, THEN travel to Earth and assimilate it. This plot hole is pretty Nexus-ian in nature.

 

[sonak]

I always really liked the disintegration effect - thought it was a pretty freaky way to die - particularly in the movies where you see Terrell or the Klingon weapons officer slowly evaporating. It's kind of a shame they got rid of this as it's pretty horrifying. Very visceral.

I would say the biggest problem I have with FC though wouldn't be what buttons people are pressing but just the plot in general. Don't get me wrong - I enjoyed it enough as a big, dumb action movie - but to this day I still don't understand why the Borg didn't just go back in time in some remote backwater ass place in the galaxy, THEN travel to Earth and assimilate it. This plot hole is pretty Nexus-ian in nature.

I don't think the Borg's original plan necessarily involved time travel, they just bailed when they realized they were losing the battle. But if they had the capability, then yeah, why not? Of course since the Federation apparently has time travel capabilities, from the GOF to the "slingshot method" in TVH, you could bring up the same "plot hole" to almost every Trek story.

"oh, Chancellor Gorkin's been assassinated!" we must undo this tragedy! Make preparations for the slingshot method!"

I'm curious if you liked Star Trek XI with your criticism of FC as a "big, dumb action movie." If anything, Trek XI is even more of one, with a dumber story and bigger plot holes, and yet FC, when it does get criticism, gets it in much the form you gave while Trek XI is LIKED for the same reasons.

 

[Bishop76]

Of course since the Federation apparently has time travel capabilities, from the GOF to the "slingshot method" in TVH, you could bring up the same "plot hole" to almost every Trek story.

"oh, Chancellor Gorkin's been assassinated!" we must undo this tragedy! Make preparations for the slingshot method!"

The difference is that the Federation wouldn't do that. One whale incident aside, they generally apply their non-interference directive to the timeline as well as developing cultures.

I'm not entirely sure why the Borg's main plan was to do a frontal assault and their backup was to travel back in time and assimilate Earth when their backup plan was probably the better of the two...

I'm curious if you liked Star Trek XI with your criticism of FC as a "big, dumb action movie." If anything, Trek XI is even more of one, with a dumber story and bigger plot holes, and yet FC, when it does get criticism, gets it in much the form you gave while Trek XI is LIKED for the same reasons.

I did like Trek XI as the big, dumb action movie it was (and it was just that). Though, I personally don't think the plot holes were as gaping as the ones present in First Contact.

 

[BlobVanDam]

Even in the cinema, I found the plot holes in STXI to be huge, but with FC I am able to easily ignore the problems and enjoy the movie.
The thing about your criticism of the time travel thing is one that can apply to a lot of time travel stories. Not that I'm saying this makes it any more excusable, but I guess it's something I'm so used to when watching time travel stories. Sometimes they forget that time means nothing when you can time travel. It's one thing that's slightly bothered me with all of the ENT time travel stories, although I have still liked them all to some degree.

 

[Christopher]

And yet I've always thought vaporization was a horrible way to die. The way it's portrayed on screen, it takes about one full second for the person to burn alive. I know the novels have often tried to portray phasers as humane compared to disruptors, but I don't buy it.

Well, that's the way it was done in the movies and TNG, but in TOS, a person would just freeze, turn into a bright glow, and then fade out -- no screaming or writhing, since the censors wouldn't allow that. And as I said, the idea was to keep things "clean" by not having hideously burned bodies lying around.

Maybe the Federation noticed this and decided to create an interstellar convention banning such weapons.

That's kind of the reverse of the rationalization that the Pocket Books fiction line has employed for the abandonment of the disintegration setting on phasers. There, the idea was that it was seen as too clean, making it perhaps too easy to kill.

I don't think the Borg's original plan necessarily involved time travel, they just bailed when they realized they were losing the battle. But if they had the capability, then yeah, why not?

Seriously? The Borg had something as powerful as time travel, and they just had it lying around without any intention of using it? How does that make a lick of sense?

I mean, think about it. If the Borg had time travel capability at all, why does any other life in the galaxy still exist? Wouldn't they have already used it to go back in time and assimilate the entire galaxy retroactively? Why save it for this one mission against Earth, yet otherwise never use it at all?

Although it's worth mentioning that in just under 3 months, I have a novel coming out called DTI: Watching the Clock which deals with a lot of Trek time-travel issues from the perspective of the Department of Temporal Investigations. And some of these questions just might come up and just might get answered...

I'm curious if you liked Star Trek XI with your criticism of FC as a "big, dumb action movie." If anything, Trek XI is even more of one, with a dumber story and bigger plot holes, and yet FC, when it does get criticism, gets it in much the form you gave while Trek XI is LIKED for the same reasons.

Conversely, a number of posters on this BBS loathe ST'09 for the same sort of "big dumb action" things they love in movies like TWOK and FC. It just goes to show, people don't so much like or dislike things for specific reasons as they come up with specific reasons in an attempt to rationalize their like or dislike for things.

 

[sonak]

Er, yes, "seriously," since otherwise why did they do a straight-up attack on Earth in the first place? They would've just time-travelled from the DQ(Delta Quadrant, not Dairy Queen) and then set a leisurely pace for Earth. I think it's clear a direct invasion was plan A.


Is that silly? yes. But I didn't write it, I'm just interpreting what's on-screen.



As to your second point, I very much agree.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, coming to Earth and then going back in time seems sillier than the reverse, but it's a lot less silly than just happening to have a time machine aboard and not even thinking about using it until the cube was already destroyed. However sloppy the execution, I think the screenwriters' intent was for the Borg's time-travel attack to be the primary goal of their invasion, not merely an afterthought.

Perhaps there was some technical reason why the particular type of time machine they used had to be activated at the target planet in order to get a coordinate fix on the proper time. Something to do with simultaneity relationships, perhaps. If they'd tried to activate it thousands of light-years away, what with relativity and all, they could've ended up centuries off-target.