A Commodore?

[Neopeius]

Timo said:
To be sure, the greenjacket Mendez was never truly associated with starbases, save for happening to reside in one at the beginning of the adventure. For all we know, redjacket Stone was still in command of Starbase 11 at the time of "The Menagerie", only not in speaking terms with Kirk for prefectly understandable reasons...

OTOH, "Court Martial" is stardated 2947 while "The Menagerie" is 3012, so there could have been a change in command. But somehow I find it more satisfactory to think that Mendez was as unrelated to SB 11 as the dialogue makes him, and more like Wesley or Decker in position and role.

"Signed, Mendez,J.I., Commodore, Starbase 11. "

I think it's pretty clear that Mendez is commander of Starbase 11.

Now, if you want to get torturous, you could argue that Mendez runs the show and Stone is just "Portmaster", whatever that means--except Kirk specifically refers to him as "commanding officer" in the opening log.

 

[GMac]

CoveTom said:
I'll have to go back and listen to the line again, but I thought Stone said Starship Captains Krasnovsky and Chandra, indicating that they were both starship captains. But I may have misheard the plural.

I've always taken that line as referring to both Krasnowsky & Chandra as captains (most of the websites with the dialogue contained therein say the same too), so I don't think you were hearing things.

GM

 

[Timo]

"Signed, Mendez,J.I., Commodore, Starbase 11." I think it's pretty clear that Mendez is commander of Starbase 11.

So looking at my mail, you'd deduce I'm the mayor of Helsinki, king of Finland?

Mendez clearly isn't giving his position there ("Commodore" is not a position in Starfleet, it's a rank). He's giving his address. Which is sort of important plotwise, because mere moments ago we thought he was "Mendez JI, Commodore, starship Enterprise"...

How would Wesley or Decker behave if coordinating their little flotillas from Starbase 11?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Neopeius]

Timo said:

"Signed, Mendez,J.I., Commodore, Starbase 11." I think it's pretty clear that Mendez is commander of Starbase 11.

So looking at my mail, you'd deduce I'm the mayor of Helsinki, king of Finland?

Mendez clearly isn't giving his position there ("Commodore" is not a position in Starfleet, it's a rank). He's giving his address. Which is sort of important plotwise, because mere moments ago we thought he was "Mendez JI, Commodore, starship Enterprise"...

How would Wesley or Decker behave if coordinating their little flotillas from Starbase 11?

Oh nonsense. I know you love to reach, but the simplest explanation is that he was running Starbase 11.

When Kirk signs as Captain, USS Enterprise, does this mean he's just a guy with a Captain's rank who happens to rent a room on NCC-1701?

Occam's Razor, man.

But fine. I can play the Timo game.

Commodore Mendez is actually Trelane. After all, we've seen Trelane wink out of existence like that. And Trelane was in a Star Trek episode just like Commodore Mendez.

Believe what you like, but I think my solution is the most elegant. Mendez was Trelane. Or maybe the other way around.

 

[J.T.B.]

Neopeius said:Oh nonsense. I know you love to reach, but the simplest explanation is that he was running Starbase 11.

I do think it is pretty likely that Mendez is the base commander. The organization of Starfleet in outlying areas is up for speculation, but in the Roddenberry/Whitfield "The Making of Star Trek" it says that the echelon between the ships and SF Command is the Star Base Command. This would imply that the base commander is also the operational commander of the ships in the region, which normally operate indepedently with little direct supervision.

As usual with these things, the on-screen picture is a little muddier. It certainly seems to make Stocker's position problematic. If he's to be in charge of Starfleet vessels in the region as well as CO of Starbase 10, it seems pretty unlikely that he would have no space command experience. Especially in close proximity to the Neutral Zone. In our time is has been learned that base commanders should "speak the same language" as their subordinates who will do the fighting. It didn't work out, for instance, when an US Army Air Force bomber group CO reported to a base commander who came from the infantry.

Bob Wesley could have been a Starbase CO who turned his base over to his XO and taken his flag to Lexington for the wargames. He does wear the badge associated with Starbase personnel. But Matt Decker doesn't seem associated with a base, or any other ships, so his position is unclear.

Stone wearing red is also odd, but as we have seen the color scheme is pretty flexible. Perhaps Stone has a spacecraft engineering post-grad or something, and chooses red to emphasize his ties with the people who "keep 'em flying." Similar to first officer Spock wearing blue.

Timo said:There is no discernible difference between a Commodore's dress uniform and a Captain's.

Actually there is in "Court Martial." Stone's jacket has additional gold piping down the outside edge of the sleeves. But in "The Menagerie" Mendez's jacket is the same as Kirk's.

--Justin

 

[Timo]

It just seems to me that a lot of this could be streamlined by equating Stone and Stocker (both of whom are explicitly and uniquely identified as starbase commanders, both of whom wear red unlike any other Commodore, and both of whom behave like desk jockeys), whilst also drawing equivalence signs between every member of the star-hopping line of greenjacket commodores who tell where starships should go and when. It's not as if there's a major roadblock on that interpretation, now is there?

Since Mendez (or a plausibly faked version of him anyway) is so quick to abandon his post for a little bit of space action, it would only make sense that somebody like Stone remains behind to mind the house...

As for the chest insignia, the traditional/intended interpretation is not the desirable one because of all the onscreen errors. Better IMHO to assume that different insignia refer to different fleets or other spatial subdivisions within the organization, so that e.g. the arrowhead is shared by starship and shore personnel of the 1st Fleet, while the sunburst is common to the starship and shore personnel of the 4th.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Timo said:
It just seems to me that a lot of this could be streamlined by equating Stone and Stocker (both of whom are explicitly and uniquely identified as starbase commanders, both of whom wear red unlike any other Commodore, and both of whom behave like desk jockeys), whilst also drawing equivalence signs between every member of the star-hopping line of greenjacket commodores who tell where starships should go and when. It's not as if there's a major roadblock on that interpretation, now is there?

The only problem I see with that is that Stone and Stocker are quite explicitly not equal. Stone is a former starship commander and Stocker emphatically is not, which indicates quite different career paths ending up at starbase command.

If Stone was once a goldshirt starship CO, it seems likely that he would still be entitled to wear that color if he preferred.

As for the chest insignia, the traditional/intended interpretation is not the desirable one because of all the onscreen errors. Better IMHO to assume that different insignia refer to different fleets or other spatial subdivisions within the organization, so that e.g. the arrowhead is shared by starship and shore personnel of the 1st Fleet, while the sunburst is common to the starship and shore personnel of the 4th.

That's fine, but Wesley, in command of multiple ships, is still a different case from Decker as far as we can tell.

--Justin

 

[137th Gebirg]

IIRC, even Ambassador Robert Fox, a civilian with no military experience whatsoever, took command of the Enterprise in a pissing contest with Spock in "A Taste of Armageddon". Did that happen or am I remembering incorrectly?

 

[Neopeius]

137th Gebirg said:
IIRC, even Ambassador Robert Fox, a civilian with no military experience whatsoever, took command of the Enterprise in a pissing contest with Spock in "A Taste of Armageddon". Did that happen or am I remembering incorrectly?

He didn't exactly take command of the Enterprise--he used the authority of his mission to give commands to the person in command of the Enterprise--and was disobeyed ultimately. Essentially, he was a political officer who reported to the council as opposed to a military officer who reported to Star Fleet.

 

[James Wright]

"Since all senior officers are incapable, I am forced by regulations to assume command." Stocker said
Spock said, "Sir, you have never commanded a starship"

The above is an abridged statement between Stocker & Spock taken from the James Blish novelization of "The Deadly Years"
Also on a web site forum of which I'm a member, I found out that there were 2 kinds of Commodore during the age of sail,
The Senior Commodore had a Captain to run the the ship while the lesser Commodore had to captain his own ship as well as command the rest of the squadron.

JDW

 

[Neopeius]

JDW said:
"Since all senior officers are incapable, I am forced by regulations to assume command." Stocker said
Spock said, "Sir, you have never commanded a starship"

Which certainly is evidence that Scott is the 2nd Officer of the Enterprise despite Sulu taking the center seat several times when Scotty could have.