A Christmas Carol discussion and grading thread

[Skywalker]

It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but how was overthrowing Harriet Jones changing history? Was there some original timeline where she remained Prime Minister for a longer time? I just assumed that the Doctor had always been the one to remove her from office.

After Aliens of London/World War Three, Nine told Rose that Harriet Jones would go on to become Prime Minister for three terms and lead Great Britain into a golden age.

But six little words uttered by the very next incarnation of the Doctor changed all that.

 

[Iasius]

I say this with love, but why do I get the feeling we are going to need to unlearn everything we learnt about Doctor Who from RTDs, in order to fully embrace Moffats Who.

Now that you're saying this, I'm realizing this might be my biggest problem. Whatever your opinion of RTD's run, it did tend to follow some very basic rules. You can't change the timeline. what happened happened. If you attempt to change the timeline, there are terrible consequences (Father's Day), or it will find a way to steer events back on course (Waters of Mars).

Except that's not true. RTD's Doctors changed history all the time (overthrowing Harriet Jones, for instance). It's like the Tenth Doctor said in "The Fires of Pompeii" -- he knows which parts of time can change and be re-written safely and which cannot, because he has special Time Lord-y senses.

Personally, I feel that this is like the question of "How fast is warp drive?" It's always been just as fast as the story requires.

The Doctor can change as much history as the story requires. Other times, he can't change history when the story requires it as well.

 

[RoJoHen]

It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but how was overthrowing Harriet Jones changing history? Was there some original timeline where she remained Prime Minister for a longer time? I just assumed that the Doctor had always been the one to remove her from office.

After Aliens of London/World War Three, Nine told Rose that Harriet Jones would go on to become Prime Minister for three terms and lead Great Britain into a golden age.

But six little words uttered by the very next incarnation of the Doctor changed all that.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I tried watching this time-shifted on Xmas but I was way too tired to make sense of the plot and couldn't follow Matt Smith's lightning fast delivery. I'm pretty good at following English accents but man, combined with his speed of delivery, I have a tough go of it sometimes.

It worked a lot better on a second viewing where I was able to take it all in but also knowing what I was in for a little. Not to mention watching it on a nice HD download since I don't get BBC America in HD.

Some of you are talking about RTD vs Moff and I find that even more than the rules or whatever they follow is that the approach is quite different. Moff has really embraced this fairy tale notion and ran with it and I could see that tripping up some viewers if they didn't really care for it. I can picture RTD getting a kick out of the shark-driven carriage.

Some have mentioned the steampunk look and I thought they did a good job of doing it without going overboard with the steam and brass and gears and all that. They struck a nice balance with invoking the past and the future but putting their own stamp on it.

I had no idea who Katherine Jenkins was, I just assumed she was some actress for whom they dubbed in the singing. Though she worked well for the role as it would not be hard to imagine someone falling in love with her.

Anyone think that Kazran's dad resembled Leo McKern?

As to my own personal silly nitpick, that snowman at the end was pathetic looking.

 

[VDCNI]

I suppose if you've only watched the modern series then the difference in approach between RTD & SM might be a little odd but really different production teams have always brought their own approach to the show.

SM & RTD are only as different as say Letts & Hinchcliffe - the core of the show remains the same - time travel, tardis, companions etc but the show has always renewed itself periodically to keep itself fresh over the years.

As for the - how much of time can you change, the easiest thing is not to worry about it! The shows gone back and forth with this for years and the usual answer is you can change as much of history as the story needs you to!

 

[Sci]

It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but how was overthrowing Harriet Jones changing history? Was there some original timeline where she remained Prime Minister for a longer time? I just assumed that the Doctor had always been the one to remove her from office.

Nope. As others have said, Harriet was originally supposed to serve three terms as Prime Minister and usher in Britain's "new golden age." Not only did the Doctor change history by getting her tossed out on a vote of no confidence, he opened up the door for the Master to take office as Harold Saxon and for the corrupt Brian Green (seen in Torchwood: Children of Earth) to take office.

I don't buy into his "Time Lordy senses." Even the Tenth Doctor admitted that his "fixed moment in time" theory was in fact just a theory. He had no proof.

He only called that "just a theory" when he was trying to pass himself off as a human from the "present" to Captain Adelaide Brook in "The Waters of Mars" -- he was trying to present what he knew to be true without tipping her off yet that he was more than just another Human. It's not a theory, it's a fact; it's how he perceives time. He is able to recognize which moments in time must stand and which are alterable. He repeats that in "Cold Blood," in point of fact.

Plus, I feel like it completely negates everything he learned in "The Waters of Mars." He can't just change history because he feels like it. "The Time Lord Victorious is wrong."

The Time Lord Victorious is wrong because he was trying to alter a fixed point -- he was trying to change the death of Adelaide, which had to happen. That was what was wrong -- he was trying to change the fundamental structure of time, an essential event that cannot change without all of history being screwed up.

To put it another way:

The Doctor changes history all the time. Every time he gets involved in historical events, he's altering history. When River was about to die at the end of "Forest of the Dead," he yelled out, "Time can be re-written!" only to have her refuse to let him re-write her life with him. The Doctor can change your life history without fucking up history most of the time.

What causes giant bats to appear and eat people, what causes time itself to fight him, is when he tries to fuck with the Fixed Points. It was his hubris in thinking he could control time to the point of changing the Fixed Points that was the issue, not changing history in general.

 

[Miss Chicken]

My best friend thought that it was the same family in the first scene as the second scene and I disagreed so we researched it.

First scene -

Old Isabella (the sister) is played Meg Wynn Owen who is 71 years old
Older Benjamin is played by Stephen North who is 45 years old.
The boy is played by Bailey Pepper

Second scene

Isabella is played by Laura Rogers who is 31 years old.
Young Benjamin is played by Bailey Pepper.

 

[Pindar]

Wow can people not just relax and enjoy a christmas special?

It was what it was supposed to be - a fun christmas adventure.

I loved it, Matt Smith continues to impress me as the Doctor, and there is no book of rules laid down for the Doctor to follow.

The show has been running for decades and makes no attempt to follow any of the laws/rules of time travel it has mentioned in the last 40 odd years.

There is nothing to unlearn. The rule Moffat has laid down as show runner is that the Doctor is a mad man with a box.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Wow can people not just relax and enjoy a christmas special?

Where have you been?

And as far as I'm concerned, it was a fun x-mas adventure.

 

[Starkers]

To whoever asked:
The first scene with the freezing chamber and the family asking for her for Christmas, the count on the chamber is "9".

Thanks for that, it was me

 

[Starkers]

Wow can people not just relax and enjoy a christmas special?

Where have you been?

And as far as I'm concerned, it was a fun x-mas adventure.

Hey its possible to still enjoy something yet be nitpicky about it

Watched again last night and it is lovely, irrespective of the ages of Abigail's family the big thing for me is still young Kazran seeing old Kazran and Abigail, because surely it rewrites everything the Doctor had already rewritten? Because young Kazran is seeing his old self and Abigail before (we assume) he has most of his Christmas eve's with the Doctor and Abigail (God I'm with Chief O'Brien on this temporal mechanics gives me a headache) Just wish the Dod had ruffled young Kazran's hair and said "Of course I'm going to have to make you forget all that"

I gave it a Very Good by the way in case anyone was wondering.

 

[Worf2DS9]

I enjoyed the special and enjoyed the tragedy of Abigail's romance with Kazran. I'll admit the Star Trek-ish bridge and accompanying lense flairs everyone has mentioned went totally over my head. I'll have to check for that when I rewatch it after I get home. And though I remember the scene, I don't remember the reference to Marilyn Monroe. (I wasn't in my own viewing environment the past few days, so I've probably missed some stuff I wouldn't normally have)

 

[Shazam!]

Just wish the Dod had ruffled young Kazran's hair and said "Of course I'm going to have to make you forget all that"

I thought the point was that young Kazran saw how terrible he'd be and then that thought filtered all the way down to old Kazran. If young Kazran forgot seeing his older self, then old Kazran would not have had the change of heart.

 

[RoJoHen]

Wow can people not just relax and enjoy a christmas special?

It was what it was supposed to be - a fun christmas adventure.

Well, unfortunately, that's been my problem with Moffat's run of "Doctor Who" this past season. It's not fun. It's boring.

 

[The]

Just wish the Dod had ruffled young Kazran's hair and said "Of course I'm going to have to make you forget all that"

I thought the point was that young Kazran saw how terrible he'd be and then that thought filtered all the way down to old Kazran. If young Kazran forgot seeing his older self, then old Kazran would not have had the change of heart.

Me, too. Also, who is to say that, in a linear line for Kaz: The Doc visits him and Abby a couple of Xmas Eve's, do the sight-seeing, and then the next one, Doctor simply takes young Kaz to see his older self (which is the final key to making him repentant). Then, after that he continues taking Kaz and Abby on their great Xmas Eve adventures until it meets up with the present old Kaz and Abby singing to the heavens, and The Doctor showing young Kaz his older self.

Remember: Time Travel.

(my brain hurts)

 

[The]

Wow can people not just relax and enjoy a christmas special?

It was what it was supposed to be - a fun christmas adventure.

Well, unfortunately, that's been my problem with Moffat's run of "Doctor Who" this past season. It's not fun. It's boring.

I hope you find something fun to bring you back to life in Season 48/6...

 

[RoJoHen]

Wow can people not just relax and enjoy a christmas special?

It was what it was supposed to be - a fun christmas adventure.

Well, unfortunately, that's been my problem with Moffat's run of "Doctor Who" this past season. It's not fun. It's boring.

I hope you find something fun to bring you back to life in Season 48/6...

Me too. The preview for next season does look pretty awesome, so hopefully I will enjoy it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I enjoyed the special and enjoyed the tragedy of Abigail's romance with Kazran. I'll admit the Star Trek-ish bridge and accompanying lense flairs everyone has mentioned went totally over my head.

You know, although the homage is pretty obvious there I think a lot of the point of it was simply contrast to the dark, neo-Victorian design of the planet below. Everything about the ship is pure, glitzy futuristic scifi including the dress white uniforms with gold mylar shoulder boards (which may have been glancingly inspired by Star Trek but don't really resemble it).

 

[Admiral_Young]

I kind of dug the officer uniforms and the Captain

 

[Shazam!]

who is to say that, in a linear line for Kaz: The Doc visits him and Abby a couple of Xmas Eve's, do the sight-seeing, and then the next one, Doctor simply takes young Kaz to see his older self (which is the final key to making him repentant). Then, after that he continues taking Kaz and Abby on their great Xmas Eve adventures until it meets up with the present old Kaz and Abby singing to the heavens, and The Doctor showing young Kaz his older self.

Nah, I don't buy that one, given that the Doctor is disppointed that he hadn't changed Kazran when he tells the Doctor to stop visiting. It's after that he brings out the big guns (young Kazran).