A certain test in Trek XI - Spoilers - (I think...)

[Franklin]

scotthm said:

Franklin said:
I watched an excellent special on The History Channel not long ago about the U.S. military academies. ...they aren't looking for mavericks or blantant rules violators, but they are looking for people who aren't afraid to think for themselves, assess a situation, and get the job done.

Of course. A person who can't think for themselves or get the job done isn't, and won't be a leader.

We already know about Kirk's cheating ways at Starfleet Academy. Can't we just have a movie that covers new territory?

Except his "cheating ways" got him a commendation for original thinking, not expulsion.
That's what we don't know about: How did he end up with that commendation instead of expulsion? Must've been one hell of defense. Or, as Sharr Khan intimated, the tribunal he was brought before was more or less perfunctory, and the brass themselves just wanted to scare him while they were actually in the back rooms laughing their asses off at how a young louie beat the no-win test.

Maybe they had to find out what kind of character Kirk truly was. OK, you "cheated" based on your personal principles. Are you willing to be punished for putting your principles ahead of regulations? Even if what you did was remarkable?
We see the same thing in TVH. Kirk stands before the Federation Council ready to accept whatever punishment they give him. Never mind, of course, in violating regulations and orders he brought Spock back to life and saved the world. Kirk stood ready to face his punishment.
And then there's McCoy's line in TUC after Kirk says that once again they've saved civilization: "And the best part is this time they're not pressing charges."

 

[Sharr Khan]

I'm only sad that they're probably going to shoehorn it into a time-travel film, which is far from appropriate, especially considering the more recent clock-reversing escapades.

There's no shoehorning, if its critical to the plot, one assumes it is if you gave a glance at what Chris Pine said... This is an origin story, not for our benefit but for the benefit of all those who don't come to places like this to complain about the thing they are supposed to like alot.

And once more the assumption that its a foregone conclusion that this particular production team is destined to make a bad movie based on the former production teams track record. I don't get it.

How the former team did stuff and with what degree of success or what kinds of stories like to have told should in no way straitjacket this group, that is so maybe Braga had a hard on for timetravel and did it with varying success - it doesn't mean this team will therefore handle it badly nor is our right to say they can't.

Neither have the Romulans been overused - actually they've been underused both in the movies and on tv, and got cheated out of a movie that was supposed to focus on them for Vampire-wannabes.

Maybe they had to find out what kind of character Kirk truly was. OK, you "cheated" based on your personal principles. Are you willing to be punished for putting your principles ahead of regulations? Even if what you did was remarkable?

I'm very sure they'd want to review Kirk's motives here and am almost sure even though he "ratted him out" during this explanation Kirk makes a strong impression on a young Vulcan causing Spock to rise as his advocate - plus that's a classic turn around, though it doesn't mean Spock won't be "frustrated" at Kirk's humaness either well starting this bond.

We see the same thing in TVH. Kirk stands before the Federation Council ready to accept whatever punishment they give him. Never mind, of course, in violating regulations and orders he brought Spock back to life and saved the world. Kirk stood ready to face his punishment.

Bingo!

Sharr

 

[USS Mariner]

Sharr Khan said:

I'm only sad that they're probably going to shoehorn it into a time-travel film, which is far from appropriate, especially considering the more recent clock-reversing escapades.

There's no shoehorning, if its critical to the plot, one assumes it is if you gave a glance at what Chris Pine said... This is an origin story, not for our benefit but for the benefit of all those who don't come to places like this to complain about the thing they are supposed to like alot.

If you don't mind, I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm not allowed to express a worry about something I do like.

If you don't mind.

And once more the assumption that its a foregone conclusion that this particular production team is destined to make a bad movie based on the former production teams track record. I don't get it.

That's actually better for them than hero worship. It sets the expectation bar low enough so that the audience will really be stunned at their final product, especially if they do pull off a great film, not just a Trek movie.

How the former team did stuff and with what degree of success or what kinds of stories like to have told should in no way straitjacket this group, that is so maybe Braga had a hard on for timetravel and did it with varying success - it doesn't mean this team will therefore handle it badly nor is our right to say they can't.

Depends on the brass at the tippy top, though it does seem like JJ is given free reign, which bodes well for everyone.

Neither have the Romulans been overused - actually they've been underused both in the movies and on tv, and got cheated out of a movie that was supposed to focus on them for Vampire-wannabes.

Sharr

Now that I think about it, they could work them in from the angle of "Wolves-in-Vulcan-clothing," which is entirely fitting when you recall "Balance of Terror."

From the sound of the leaked info however, I doubt that they'd pick that up, not this late in the game.

 

[Sharr Khan]

If you don't mind, I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm not allowed to express a worry about something I do like.

If you don't mind.

Well I don't mind, just don't expect to not be countered where I think I see an overreaction or what I think is being myopic. Deal? Its a message board after all.

Trust me though this film is serving two purposes with one of them holding a greater sway and that is to create a whole new bunch of Trek fans who need to be filled in real fast about who these people are and what their strengths are.

Now that I think about it, they could work them in from the angle of "Wolves-in-Vulcan-clothing," which is entirely fitting when you recall "Balance of Terror."

From the sound of the leaked info however, I doubt that they'd pick that up, not this late in the game.

Well what you're lacking is context. Remember "The Guardian" was supposed to be in it according to that "leaked info" - Harlen Ellision says ITS NOT. He's either lying or the check cleared? (I think this forum needs a FAQ) - so why take the leaked info as the truth? For starters, it lacks context... plus even still some ideas work better on screen then in snippets without context to make them flow better.

That's actually better for them than hero worship. It sets the expectation bar low enough so that the audience will really be stunned at their final product, especially if they do pull off a great film, not just a Trek movie.

Cause I prefer not to harp on someone until I've seen their screw up, not assume they'll blow it from the get go. Seems more respectful that way.

And I would never assume one set of producers would handle things, ideas of scifi or its concepts the same way as another. Time travel has been done before but it doesn't mean no one ever linked to Trek should ever do it again - so we shouldn't constrain a new group from toying with it if they like. But then I generally like time travel - provided the story is about the people involved not explaining to be how temporal vortex's work.

Sharr

 

[Arlo]

I really hope the time travel business is a fake leak.

 

[USS Mariner]

It's just the fact that ENT's beaten it to death so recently with time-traveling Nazis (How the fuck they screwed that concept up is beyond comprehension) and dimension-hopping hermaphrodites.

The Temporal Cold War started out great, but then they wiped their collective asses with it.

 

[Arlo]

No, TT is overdone in Trek across the board.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Mariner Class said:
It's just the fact that ENT's beaten it to death so recently with time-traveling Nazis (How the fuck they screwed that concept up is beyond comprehension) and dimension-hopping hermaphrodites.

The Temporal Cold War started out great, but then they wiped their collective asses with it.

When were there time traveling Nazis on ENT? The time travellers allied themselves with the Nazis, but I don't think they were actual Nazis.

 

[USS Mariner]

Nerys Myk said:

Mariner Class said:
It's just the fact that ENT's beaten it to death so recently with time-traveling Nazis (How the fuck they screwed that concept up is beyond comprehension) and dimension-hopping hermaphrodites.

The Temporal Cold War started out great, but then they wiped their collective asses with it.

When were there time traveling Nazis on ENT? The time travellers allied themselves with the Nazis, but I don't think they were actual Nazis.

Sarcasm, sorry if I took it a little too far.

It's just that the concept of futuristic, alternate-universe Nazis is a huge draw for many people (if TGT doesn't respond to this, then I've lost faith in humanity.)

The way it was used in "Zero Hour" and "Storm Front" was only extend a finished story into a cliffhanger that would compel viewers to watch the next season.

Hell, the whole TCW arc went downhill from "Azati Prime" (which I kind of liked) onward with increasingly insane plot contrivances, all being brushed over because of the invocation of "time travel." This isn't the first time, and I understand that this is a totally different group of people at work here, but I and others get a bit worried that the idea is used yet again for a plot that honestly sounds rock solid on it's own.

 

[Arlo]

^ QFT. A time traveling Romulan named Nero? That sounds disturbingly Nemesis-like to me.

 

[steveman]

^

No, for it to be Nemesis-like, it would have to have nothing to do with Romulans at all.

 

[USS Mariner]

Nero must also be a blond, bald, effete male model with piercing blue eyes and the worst teeth in the galaxy.

 

[Aragorn]

Well if it means anything, "Nero" gets to sleep with both Natalie Portman and Scarlett Johansson (as sisters, no less) in his next movie, so maybe he went back in time and stole Kirk's mojo?

 

[blockaderunner]

Sharr Khan said:
No I want it to have to do with the plot but moreover with who these people are. From what we have heard so far this does exactly that.

It shouldn't be a passing in the hallway moment.

How bout they get assigned as lab partners and have to dissect a tribble together? THAT'S exciting!

No its not... its mundane and tells us nothing about either man.

What's your idea then if you can come up with something better?

And what's wrong with mundane? Sometimes they are the most memorable meetings because no one would expect them to rise to such greatness from such a mundane encounter. To use a great example:

"Anakin Skywalker, meet Obi Wan Kenobi".

Simple and to the point.

What do you want? A group of bigoted, humans only cadets shoving Spock around and Kirk swooping in to save him with his Shatner-esque karate chops? Oh yeah. That'll go over well. Something as simple as one asking the other where a certain lecture hall is on campus and they walk in the same direction with trivial small talk would work for me. It would de-superhero them and bring them down to the level of two guys just trying to get throuygh the day and not portray them as these icons to be.

 

[Sharr Khan]

"Mundane" just isn't gonna cut it for this production that's why. Starship Polaris has pretty much laid out why this makes dramatic sense and I agree with him. This in its own way helps cement not to mention explain that bond between Spock & Kirk.

And oh yeah, before Obi-Wan and Anakin met, there was a fight scene that lead into that moment hardly mundane. Using PTM to illustrate your point maybe isn't such a great choice. Lucas isn't a guy I'd take writing advice from.

Sharr

 

[blockaderunner]

^^^^Well, Shar Khan, you seem to be the expert, considering you've shot down everyone else's scenarios. What's your ideal meeting for Kirk and Spock?

 

[Sharr Khan]

blockaderunner said:
^^^^Well, Shar Khan, you seem to be the expert, considering you've shot down everyone else's scenarios. What's your ideal meeting for Kirk and Spock?

I'm no naysayer here remember? I don't feel a need to second guess these guys, at least until after I see the results of their efforts.

Had I been charged with doing so I might very well have picked this very scenario or at least hoped I was smart enough to use The Kobayashi Maru for this kind of moment. It almost writes itself.

To me tying it all together like this strikes a dramatic cord with me.

Sharr

 

[Arlo]

Yeah, I'd rather see a simple meeting that *grows* into something bigger, rather than it start off as some super-adventurey fan wankage.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Viewing this dramatization of their meeting only within the context of a movie, it's very strong. This immediate establishment of distrust and distance between the two of them, which clearly arises right out of the basic differences in their world-views and characters, will have to be played and will enter into every encounter and scene they have with one another for the remainder of the film.

They don't like one another.

They don't understand one another.

They don't trust one another.

So of course they'll probably have to save the Universe together.

 

[blockaderunner]

Arlo said:
Yeah, I'd rather see a simple meeting that *grows* into something bigger, rather than it start off as some super-adventurey fan wankage.

Hence my "lecture hall inquiry on campus" scenario. Along they way to the lecture hall, they can converse and find that they have some common ground on a few things, sowing the seeds of what will be great friendship. Granted, it's not balls-to-the-wall action, but up until the last few years when the Beebs had total control, Trek has never been about balls-to-the-wall action.