A Canon Discussion

[JiNX-01]

There are times when turning away from continuity totally works for me:
ENT Andorians' antennae move!
The makeup/prosthetics for ENT Tellarites was a vast improvement.

Where did you see that Andorians' antennae could not move? Or was it just that movie technology didn'y exist in the 1960s, 70s and 80s so they did not move

"Canon" has nothing to do with it. The fact the Andorians had antennae is the "canon".

If you want a "canon" violation, then in ENT Andorians did not even have antennae, as an example.

Nice try though.

The only time I ever saw Andorians was in TOS' Journey to Babel. The antennae didn't move. Was it a consequence of the limitations of spfx at the time? Probably. But for people who are married to "canon/continuity," they shouldn't move in ENT. But they do.

 

[cultcross]

... No-one thinks twice about expecting writers to write consistent and internally coherent stuff for shows like Law & Order or ER, and just because their 'canon' isn't about spaceships and aliens doesn't make it any different a concern.
Star Trek should be able to be creative and original, and maintain the consistency of the existing canon. Both. If the writers can't do this, get better writers.

That is quite a ridiculas comparison. Law and Order or ER does not have 28 combined seasons plus movies plus animited series to track. These shows don't span centuries and they did not start off with a vision of future technology that already looks dated. Even if they did, would fans of those shows worry more about the canon of technology than the quality of the stories?

But who knows, maybe the writers do it on purpose. All the distraction over canon may take the pressure away from delivering good plot and sub-plot.

And this is exactly my point - it's always 'canon or good stories'.
It should be both.
And any long running show is an example of a TV canon in which writers must set their stories. Try thinking of it not as the dreaded word 'canon' but in terms of 'setting'. The writers of a TV show create a universe within the show for the stories to be set in. For a show like Law & Order or ER, this universe, by and large, begins from modern day reality, and builds history and characters on top of that. Star Trek does the same thing, it just starts from a fantastical premise right away. The stories take place within this established show 'world'. Just as a working phaser isn't going to show up in ER, because that's absurd in the world in which it's set and would break apart suspension of disbelief, violations of Star Trek's established world are just as absurd.

The setting of a story, any story, not just on TV, is important, and keeping it consistent and coherent a skill. A writer who feels they must mess about with the setting to tell his story is thus lacking this skill - telling stories set in this world is their job.

Just as a cop or hospital show must bow to the realities of the world in which they're set, Star Trek must bow to the fictional 'realities' of the world in which it's set. If I work as a staff writer on ER and want to tell a story about a genuine vampire invasion, tough shit. In this universe, vampires don't exist. If I work for Star Trek, and I want to tell a story in which (say) the Romulans have cloaking technology decades before they should, the response is or should be the same: tough shit. In this universe, that didn't happen.

 

[Forbin]

Yes, they could cloak since TOS' Balance of Terror, where it came as a total surprise to Kirk and Spock. The Enterprise episode took place 100 years BEFORE Balance of Terror. Ya see the problem?

Anyhoo, that's just an example.

Yes, I see your point. It's a while since I have seen "Balance of Terror" (least that's my excuse!), but of course ENT should not have had cloaking Romulans, or any idea of what Romulans looked like.Nothing but lazy, sloppy writing and production values.

Regards

Also remember that in ENT the Romulans could not cloak a full size ship. They cloaked mines and things of that general size.

No, the ships cloaked.
AND they had cloaking devices tiny and cheap enough to waste on mines!
Clearly they were far more advance in Enterprise's time than they were 100 years later!

 

[DrTaylor]

I wouldn't say it's wrong to violate canon, but any sense of continuity is a tip of the hat to fans, and away of saying thank you for our life-long dedication to Trek.

It's also annoying when they skip something and we know it's wrong.

I don't think they should watch everything, but I do think they should hire someone who has watched everything to look it all over before it gets filmed.

 

[Tyberius]

There are times when turning away from continuity totally works for me:
ENT Andorians' antennae move!
The makeup/prosthetics for ENT Tellarites was a vast improvement.

Where did you see that Andorians' antennae could not move? Or was it just that movie technology didn'y exist in the 1960s, 70s and 80s so they did not move

"Canon" has nothing to do with it. The fact the Andorians had antennae is the "canon".

If you want a "canon" violation, then in ENT Andorians did not even have antennae, as an example.

Nice try though.

Antennae moved position on the head http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Andorian#Antennae.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

There are times when turning away from continuity totally works for me:
ENT Andorians' antennae move!
The makeup/prosthetics for ENT Tellarites was a vast improvement.

Where did you see that Andorians' antennae could not move? Or was it just that movie technology didn'y exist in the 1960s, 70s and 80s so they did not move

"Canon" has nothing to do with it. The fact the Andorians had antennae is the "canon".

If you want a "canon" violation, then in ENT Andorians did not even have antennae, as an example.

Nice try though.

Antennae moved position on the head http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Andorian#Antennae.

For the exact placement of the antennae to vary by individual seems reasonable to me, but the ones further forward (Shran and the Andorian female wearing that odd hat) look more natural.

 

[Unicron]

No, the ships cloaked.
AND they had cloaking devices tiny and cheap enough to waste on mines!
Clearly they were far more advance in Enterprise's time than they were 100 years later!

Actually, I think it'd be a lot easier to develop a stable cloak on a smaller scale first. The mines don't have any other systems that have to compete for energy the way ships do, so I have no problem with cloakable mines. Clearly they had to have been working on the technology for some time to make it feasible for the ship in BOT to become fully invisible, albeit still showing up on sensors.

But for what it's worth, I agree with you that they should have just left the cloaks out to begin with.

 

[ToddPence]

Boy, that William Conrad was one hell of an actor!

Oh, wait, sorry, this is the "canon" discussion. My mistake.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yes, they could cloak since TOS' Balance of Terror, where it came as a total surprise to Kirk and Spock. The Enterprise episode took place 100 years BEFORE Balance of Terror. Ya see the problem?

But when Kirk was after the cloaking device in "The Enterprise Incident" it was also treated like something brand new. I have no problem with each Romulan device being of such different tech so as to be new, unexpected and different.

 

[Therin of Andor]

the Andorian female wearing that odd hat.

That's no hat. It's a polished slice of geode trimmed in metal. The male ambassador in TMP had a huge chest plate made of the same stone.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, they could cloak since TOS' Balance of Terror, where it came as a total surprise to Kirk and Spock. The Enterprise episode took place 100 years BEFORE Balance of Terror. Ya see the problem?

But when Kirk was after the cloaking device in "The Enterprise Incident" it was also treated like something brand new. I have no problem with each Romulan device being of such different tech so as to be new, unexpected and different.

Were they really "surprised"?
http://tos.trekcore.com/audiocaps/1x14/1x14-tos-05.mp3

http://tos.trekcore.com/audiocaps/1x14/1x14-tos-11.mp3

The plasma weapon seemed like a bigger deal.

 

[Forbin]

Yes, they could cloak since TOS' Balance of Terror, where it came as a total surprise to Kirk and Spock. The Enterprise episode took place 100 years BEFORE Balance of Terror. Ya see the problem?

But when Kirk was after the cloaking device in "The Enterprise Incident" it was also treated like something brand new. I have no problem with each Romulan device being of such different tech so as to be new, unexpected and different.

Ah, but the schtick in Enterprise Incident was that it was a new model cloak that Starfleet couldn't track, and hence more dangerous than the previously-encountered one, which they could.

Whereas in Balance of Terror, the very existance of a working cloak was a surprise.

 

[EEE]

For the exact placement of the antennae to vary by individual seems reasonable to me, but the ones further forward (Shran and the Andorian female wearing that odd hat) look more natural.

TOS & My Favorite Martian firmly established that antenna are always on the back of the head! *grin*

(Actually, I didn't mind the move, as I did like the antenna movement addition, whereas I had opposite feelings on... see below)

And yes, that means Enterprise ignored the shit out of continuity, not only with the Romulans, but with the Suliban and their cloaking ability as well.

Enterprise essentially pissed on TOS (sometimes while simultaneously honoring it!?). I just finished watching it with my wife (her first time through) and found myself continuosly thinking of the line/rhetorical question by the "redshirt" in Galaxy Quest... "did you guys ever WATCH the show?"

I had a real problem with Enterprise... until I realised... it was a parallel universe! (hard core TOS fans can rationalize with zero effort).

My personal opinion is that they should've had original Klingons and left the enigma (as played to by Worf's response of "we don't talk about it" in DS9 Trials & Tribulations).

I'm still trying to figure out why the post-TOS Romulans have the "V for Vulcan" (or Victory) forehead ridges.

 

[Unicron]

I've alway assumed it's a genetic mutation, but I do think it's a nice distinction even though the series was never very consistent with separating the two races. TNG did establish that, despite their close genetic similarities, Romulans are a distinct race and medical treatments for Vulcans do not necessarily work on them. ("The Enemy")

 

[Sector 7]

Enterprise essentially pissed on TOS (sometimes while simultaneously honoring it!?). I just finished watching it with my wife (her first time through) and found myself continuosly thinking of the line/rhetorical question by the "redshirt" in Galaxy Quest... "did you guys ever WATCH the show?"

I had a real problem with Enterprise... until I realised... it was a parallel universe! (hard core TOS fans can rationalize with zero effort).

My personal opinion is that they should've had original Klingons and left the enigma (as played to by Worf's response of "we don't talk about it" in DS9 Trials & Tribulations).

I'm still trying to figure out why the post-TOS Romulans have the "V for Vulcan" (or Victory) forehead ridges.

I agree completely. This addresses issues I have had for years:
1)When Romulans were first introduced in BoT, the whole idea was that they looked like Vulcans. Then in TNG they suddenly didn't look like Vulcans. Yet in Unification, Spock and some Romulans don't have ridges.
2)I still like Worf's curt response to the whole ENT explanation of ridged vs. non-ridged Klingons. A little mystery is a good thing. To waste episodes on their explanation of Klingon ridgery was ridiculous.
Parallel Universe, yeah, that's the ticket! Or maybe we could just pretend it never happened... you know... like it was all holodeck make-believe...

 

[EEE]

I had a real problem with Enterprise... until I realised... it was a parallel universe! (hard core TOS fans can rationalize with zero effort).

Parallel Universe, yeah, that's the ticket! Or maybe we could just pretend it never happened... you know... like it was all holodeck make-believe...

Now you're cooking! *grin*

 

[SFRabid]

Enterprise essentially pissed on TOS (sometimes while simultaneously honoring it!?). I just finished watching it with my wife (her first time through) and found myself continuosly thinking of the line/rhetorical question by the "redshirt" in Galaxy Quest... "did you guys ever WATCH the show?"

I had a real problem with Enterprise... until I realised... it was a parallel universe! (hard core TOS fans can rationalize with zero effort).

My personal opinion is that they should've had original Klingons and left the enigma (as played to by Worf's response of "we don't talk about it" in DS9 Trials & Tribulations).

I'm still trying to figure out why the post-TOS Romulans have the "V for Vulcan" (or Victory) forehead ridges.

I agree completely. This addresses issues I have had for years:
1)When Romulans were first introduced in BoT, the whole idea was that they looked like Vulcans. Then in TNG they suddenly didn't look like Vulcans. Yet in Unification, Spock and some Romulans don't have ridges.
...

Wouldn't that be a TNG canon issue instead of ENT?

 

[Forbin]

Both!

 

[Broccoli]

When it comes to canon and a show, I am more concerned if the show's internal canon is straight than if it lines up with everything else (unless, of course, the show is radically different from everything else).

Now, I realize the cloak issue was an oops, but overall, I thought ENT was pretty good with staying in line with what TOS established. I really don't get the "ENT breaks canon" argument. There might have been the occasional goof (With a franchise that spans 5 shows and nearly 30 television seasons, mistakes are bound to happen), but it fit within the other established lore.

Granted, ENT might have pissed on fandom theories, but so what? TPTB don't and probably shouldn't hold themselves to what fandom has to say.

I just find it somewhat interesting that people cry foul with ENT, when TOS didn't even have it's internal canon straight (just who did Kirk work for again?). Granted, the writers of TOS had no idea what TOS would turn into, but lets call a spade a spade.

 

[Forbin]

"To drive your enemies before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

Oh wait, that's a Conan discussion.