I'm hoping the new showrunner kills them off in their first episode.
8X01 "Deep Breath" Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)
- Thread starter Samurai8472
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I'm hoping the new showrunner kills them off in their first episode.
At least RTD's stories were enjoyable.
Oh, bull. Eleven and Clara were about an inch away from dating -- they were both infatuated with the other, neither one objected when other people called them the other's S.O. So, yeah, it's perfectly understandable that she'd be more attached to the particular incarnation she had gotten to care for, and that she'd want to change him back.
I mean, it's regeneration -- it's not accurate to try to equate it with Human biology. The incarnation whom she fell for is dead, and this incarnation isn't infatuated with her -- so the psychological effect is going to simultaneously be like a death and a breakup. She has to accept that his old self is dead and mourn him, yet also accept that his new self loves her platonically rather than romantically.
I think that's an incredibly condescending way to understand what she's going through -- you're attributing a great deal of shallowness to a character for no particular reason. Clara cared for Eleven on a much deeper level than just physical attraction. I mean, c'mon -- it's not like any woman who looks like Jenna Coleman is gonna have trouble finding a hot guy if that's what she cares about. It's not about sex with her. Like she said in that miniature web episode they made last year, "She Said, He Said" -- the trick is not to the fall in love with the (Eleventh) Doctor, and she had to do that trick twice a day when she was with him.
Having Capaldi's character in "The Fires of Pompeii" be the Doctor wouldn't make any sense -- he's literally reproduced with a Human woman, and he gives no indication whatsoever that he knows or understands the Doctor's nature.
And having Capaldi's character in Torchwood: Children of Earth would not only make no sense, but would be like pissing all over the dramatic integrity of a brilliant, brilliant mini-series. To say nothing of his character's horrifying ending in CoE.
Eh, that's fan hate for you. I have my problems with Moffat, too, but I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for what he gets right, and I find the fans react disproportionately to the flaws. But it was inevitable -- fans had put Moffat on such a pedestal during RTD's tenure that there was no way they weren't gonna turn on him when he inevitably took over and every episode wasn't "Blink."
I'm sorry to say that I was rather disappointed with this episode as an introduction to a new Doctor. The first 30 minutes were fairly pointless filled with kiddie moments and sound effects. Clara is annoying once again and there's is too much nonsense talk that doesn't move the plot forward. 11's first episode was fantastic and had momentum but this opening for 12 is not a good start. Capaldi however is and will be a great great Doctor. It's just a pity that the story was a let down here. I hope and expect future episodes to be stronger.
I miss Amy too.
I miss Amy too.
Watched this again this morning (perks of the wife bringing the kids to the in-laws) and probably enjoyed it more this time. It helped not being tipsy. I think I was half asleep for the scene with the tramp, which was one of the highlights, last night.
Capaldi's performance grew on me this time and I think he broght elements of Hartnell, Tom Baker and even Matt Smith with him (the latter could be the writing, admittedly). The scene with the tramp and the final face-off with the bad guy really brought out the best in him, IMHO.
I still think bringing back Matt was a big miscalculation. The new Doctor seemed to have established himself and in Clara's final scene in Victorian London, she seemed to have accepted that (to me, anyway). Then suddenly in the TARDIS she doesn't know who he is any more. And we the audience, having just gotten to see the new Doctor prove himself, are suddenly shown his brilliant predecessor. I could watch Matt as the Doctor forever but that's hardly helpful in establishing his successor.
Incidentally, am I the only one who preferred the outfit the Doctor was wearing in the showdown with the bad guy to the costume he finally selected for himself?
The coda with Missy, the references to where he's seen the face before, the tie-in with TGITFP and the reference to the woman who wanted to put Clara in touch with the Doctor (via the helpline) suggest that there is a potentially intriguing storyline arc in play here. I just hope Moffatt can realise its potential.
Capaldi's performance grew on me this time and I think he broght elements of Hartnell, Tom Baker and even Matt Smith with him (the latter could be the writing, admittedly). The scene with the tramp and the final face-off with the bad guy really brought out the best in him, IMHO.
I still think bringing back Matt was a big miscalculation. The new Doctor seemed to have established himself and in Clara's final scene in Victorian London, she seemed to have accepted that (to me, anyway). Then suddenly in the TARDIS she doesn't know who he is any more. And we the audience, having just gotten to see the new Doctor prove himself, are suddenly shown his brilliant predecessor. I could watch Matt as the Doctor forever but that's hardly helpful in establishing his successor.
Incidentally, am I the only one who preferred the outfit the Doctor was wearing in the showdown with the bad guy to the costume he finally selected for himself?
The coda with Missy, the references to where he's seen the face before, the tie-in with TGITFP and the reference to the woman who wanted to put Clara in touch with the Doctor (via the helpline) suggest that there is a potentially intriguing storyline arc in play here. I just hope Moffatt can realise its potential.
As I said before, lots of planets have a Scotland.
So are people just ignoring that it's been established clearly during the Christmas special this is not 12? You may hate it, that's fine, but if it's clearly stated on screen that technically Smith was 13.......
Anyway, it was ok. Not perfect, not great. But it had moments. I'm just hoping that the blond girl from the shop isn't Rose. I liked Rose, loved her. But bringing her back now would be weird.
Anyway, it was ok. Not perfect, not great. But it had moments. I'm just hoping that the blond girl from the shop isn't Rose. I liked Rose, loved her. But bringing her back now would be weird.
The official line from the BBC is that Matt Smith's was the Eleventh Doctor and Peter Capaldi's is the Twelfth Doctor, and John Hurt's was the War Doctor. They didn't renumber the entire line-up for Hurt.
And, no, Smith's was not the 13th incarnation of the Doctor. He was the twelfth incarnation. David Tennant does not count twice -- that's a single incarnation that happened to use up two regenerations.
I don't see why you would think it's Rose; it's pretty clear she's over in Pete's World. And if Moffat had any inclination to bring Rose back, "The Day of the Doctor" would have been the time to do it -- yet he chose to have Billie Piper play a completely different character instead.
Capaldi is 12 because that's what Moffat and the BBC calls him.
Ok..... Now I'm confused. When did Moffat state that? In the episode they state a whole new line of regenerations have been granted, that Smith was the 13th generation and all that.... But Moffat states he's the 12th?
I was overall pleased.
I thought the use of the clockwork droids was very good. Not a villain you expected to see again, but very cleverly used as a metaphor for the Doctor himself, which i didn't even catch until it was pretty much spelled out.
The Doctor's post-renegeration fugue was well done. I flat-out laughed at his very first line - opening the door, saying "Shush!" and slamming it again. This all makes sense - this is not just a new body but a whole new cycle of bodies, so the reset is all the harder. Even while he was confused and channeling other doctors - 11's flailing and flirting, 10's swashbuckling, 6's insults - there was a base Doctor-ness that he showed almost instinctively, the empathy for an innocent creature in pain, the jumping straight into trouble. A root-level programming that manifests regardless of the outer face and personality he wears. Much like the droids.
I enjoyed the Doctor's harsher new personality. The jabs at Clara were pinpoint and a good shock, and his crazy breakdown with the homeless guy was well written. I like the bit about "I never know where I get the faces from" - a subtle reference to Capaldi's previous appearances, dealing with it without labouring it.
Perhaps it was mildly unbelievable that Clara would have such problems with the regeneration, given her experiences with past Doctors. But I'll give it them. The companion is and always has been the audience substitute, so it makes sense to put her character through this to symbolise the audience going through the same thing. I have no problem with that. If you need an in-universe explanation, she may have seen all the previous doctors, but she watched them getting progressively younger and younger. One of her major problems is how this one can have possibly got older in contradiction of what she's seen before.
Plus there's the idea that this is like a break-up for her. She denies it over and over through the dialogue, and yet people keep telling her "he's not your boyfriend". She needed the one she secretly thought of as her boyfriend - as shown repeatedly in "Time of the Doctor" to tell her to let him go before she could accept the new version.
Plus, I will not argue when it gave her the chance to show some actual personality. The fight with Vastra, the bravery and quick thinking of trying to hide from the droids and argue with the lead droid - all admirable qualities. With the Doctor so confused and untrustworthy, she had to step up in ways she hadn't before, and it served her well.
So, onto the Matt Smith cameo. I'm ambivalent. As I said, I understand the desire to help the viewers (and the characters) over the hump by showing the previous version give his blessing to the new version. It makes sense in-universe. But at the same time, I think it's mildly insulting to Capaldi to imply that he can't take the reins himself without a little help from Smith.
Likewise, the re-use of Vastra, Jenny and Strax. I understand why it was done - familiar characters to help Clara and us through - and they're fun, I enjoy their appearances. But a little goes a long way. Don't end up relying on them too much, or they'll outstay their welcome like River eventually did.
I'm also ambivalent about the cliffhanger. While I'm a fan of arcs, I'm not a fan of arcs that basically jump up and down in front of you and shriek "We've got a secret and we're not going to tell you hahahah!" which is what I felt like this was. We'll see how it develops - hopefully it won't be as incomprehensible a mess as season 6.
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I thought the use of the clockwork droids was very good. Not a villain you expected to see again, but very cleverly used as a metaphor for the Doctor himself, which i didn't even catch until it was pretty much spelled out.
The Doctor's post-renegeration fugue was well done. I flat-out laughed at his very first line - opening the door, saying "Shush!" and slamming it again. This all makes sense - this is not just a new body but a whole new cycle of bodies, so the reset is all the harder. Even while he was confused and channeling other doctors - 11's flailing and flirting, 10's swashbuckling, 6's insults - there was a base Doctor-ness that he showed almost instinctively, the empathy for an innocent creature in pain, the jumping straight into trouble. A root-level programming that manifests regardless of the outer face and personality he wears. Much like the droids.
I enjoyed the Doctor's harsher new personality. The jabs at Clara were pinpoint and a good shock, and his crazy breakdown with the homeless guy was well written. I like the bit about "I never know where I get the faces from" - a subtle reference to Capaldi's previous appearances, dealing with it without labouring it.
Perhaps it was mildly unbelievable that Clara would have such problems with the regeneration, given her experiences with past Doctors. But I'll give it them. The companion is and always has been the audience substitute, so it makes sense to put her character through this to symbolise the audience going through the same thing. I have no problem with that. If you need an in-universe explanation, she may have seen all the previous doctors, but she watched them getting progressively younger and younger. One of her major problems is how this one can have possibly got older in contradiction of what she's seen before.
Plus there's the idea that this is like a break-up for her. She denies it over and over through the dialogue, and yet people keep telling her "he's not your boyfriend". She needed the one she secretly thought of as her boyfriend - as shown repeatedly in "Time of the Doctor" to tell her to let him go before she could accept the new version.
Plus, I will not argue when it gave her the chance to show some actual personality. The fight with Vastra, the bravery and quick thinking of trying to hide from the droids and argue with the lead droid - all admirable qualities. With the Doctor so confused and untrustworthy, she had to step up in ways she hadn't before, and it served her well.
So, onto the Matt Smith cameo. I'm ambivalent. As I said, I understand the desire to help the viewers (and the characters) over the hump by showing the previous version give his blessing to the new version. It makes sense in-universe. But at the same time, I think it's mildly insulting to Capaldi to imply that he can't take the reins himself without a little help from Smith.
Likewise, the re-use of Vastra, Jenny and Strax. I understand why it was done - familiar characters to help Clara and us through - and they're fun, I enjoy their appearances. But a little goes a long way. Don't end up relying on them too much, or they'll outstay their welcome like River eventually did.
I'm also ambivalent about the cliffhanger. While I'm a fan of arcs, I'm not a fan of arcs that basically jump up and down in front of you and shriek "We've got a secret and we're not going to tell you hahahah!" which is what I felt like this was. We'll see how it develops - hopefully it won't be as incomprehensible a mess as season 6.
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No such line was in "The Time of the Doctor." "Time" established that the Doctor had realized that his regeneration in "Journey's End" used up one of his twelve possible regenerations -- and that he had thus regenerated twelve times (One to Two, Two to Three, Three to Four, Four to Five, Five to Six, Six to Seven, Seven to Eight, Eight to War, War to Nine, Nine to Ten, Ten staying Ten, Ten to Eleven). Eleven's line was that he was actually the twelfth incarnation, and that there would be no others because he had used up one to keep himself as Ten.
While The Eleventh Hour was a very bold statement - yes, this is a brand new show, with new characters and a new tone and we think it's awesome, deal with it - Deep Breath seemed afraid and almost apologetic as if Moffat were constantly pleading us to stick with the series. That turned me off.
I don't mind the longer scenes in theory, but here some of them seemed to be stretched beyond what was necessary. From time to time, it was like watching a Strindberg play. It had the effect (for me at least) to make the villain seem ineffective and not very threatening. He didn't seem to do much of anything except have conversations and talk about the Promised Land. Lots of scenes lacked tension because of questionable choices in editing, in my opinion.
I couldn't buy Clara's reaction (though Jenna Coleman gave her best) to the regeneration. I can understand how she could be turned off by the new Doctor but here she seemed confused by the whole process, which really doesn't make much sense.
Though I've always liked the Paternoster Gang, here I thought that they "Oh we're so enigmatic and wise and lesbotic" shtick was wearing a bit thin. If we see them again, I'd rather see them used out of their element. Here they seemed a little bit too comfortable and hard to impress.
Capaldi was very good, I thought, as was Coleman. Lots of quotable lines. Murray Gold's score was pretty good too. I like the new credits. The telephone scene at the end cemented the twelfth Doctor as THE Doctor while underlying the problematic pusillanimous tone of the episode.
I don't mind the longer scenes in theory, but here some of them seemed to be stretched beyond what was necessary. From time to time, it was like watching a Strindberg play. It had the effect (for me at least) to make the villain seem ineffective and not very threatening. He didn't seem to do much of anything except have conversations and talk about the Promised Land. Lots of scenes lacked tension because of questionable choices in editing, in my opinion.
I couldn't buy Clara's reaction (though Jenna Coleman gave her best) to the regeneration. I can understand how she could be turned off by the new Doctor but here she seemed confused by the whole process, which really doesn't make much sense.
Though I've always liked the Paternoster Gang, here I thought that they "Oh we're so enigmatic and wise and lesbotic" shtick was wearing a bit thin. If we see them again, I'd rather see them used out of their element. Here they seemed a little bit too comfortable and hard to impress.
Capaldi was very good, I thought, as was Coleman. Lots of quotable lines. Murray Gold's score was pretty good too. I like the new credits. The telephone scene at the end cemented the twelfth Doctor as THE Doctor while underlying the problematic pusillanimous tone of the episode.
I had to vote Scottish (och aye!) But it wasn't perfect. dragged in some places, Clara holding her breath sequence for example. And the dinosaur was waaaaayyyy too big, it could have just grabbed on like Captain Jack.
I do like the new credits, don't much like the new theme. Clara should know what regeneration is all about, she shouldn't have freaked the way she did, terribly inconsistent. I guess she represents all the 10/11 fangirls out there.
I'm really tired right now, but overall I enjoyed it, and Capaldi is going to be good. This series will go to some interesting places.
I do like the new credits, don't much like the new theme. Clara should know what regeneration is all about, she shouldn't have freaked the way she did, terribly inconsistent. I guess she represents all the 10/11 fangirls out there.
I'm really tired right now, but overall I enjoyed it, and Capaldi is going to be good. This series will go to some interesting places.
Mage - Here is the relevant transcript from "The Time of the Doctor." I can see where you might get confused, but if you read it, Eleven does not call himself the Thirteenth Doctor:
At the start, he's talking about the hypothetical -- that there could, hypothetically, be 13 Doctors as a result of 12 regenerations. But at the end, he's saying that he's had 12 incarnations and has used up all of his regenerations.
The Time of the Doctor said:
At the start, he's talking about the hypothetical -- that there could, hypothetically, be 13 Doctors as a result of 12 regenerations. But at the end, he's saying that he's had 12 incarnations and has used up all of his regenerations.
I voted Scottish! only because I loved how the episode trolled people bothered by Capaldi's age (what?), and did several pretty powerful scenes around this and related subjects. I want more!
Our old friends were a bit of a side-story patched around the regeneration story, but I think it fit pretty well, and better than other similar episodes. I loved the tension that was created when the Doctor seemingly left Clara – for a moment I thought he was actually doing it. I also loved how around the time the Doctor was about to figure out things seemed familiar, he channelled ten and realised he was Scottish. "Spare parts" at the river made me suspicious, and by the time he delivered a little bit of ten I was certain where we were. And loved that he didn't.
The resolution didn't live up to the rest of the episode, although the ambiguity surrounding it made up for that – and it was pretty emotional scene. I was also kinda disappointed that the police and the other local folk were basically extras. It is one of the rare instances where they've actually set an episode to where Jenny and Vastra live, and have showed a glimpse in their regular life and have heavily hinted at the prejudice that surrounds them, yet all people simply sat there gaping at the things they haven't seen before, without any participation. (I actually prefer to see an episode-long story about Jenny, who is native of that time and place, meeting Vastra, but that doesn't mean we can't take on one of the other folks there for ride, does it?)
The phone call made me get emotional. Hey, what's up with you, it was me who just called you! Lovely.
I am deeply confused what this promised land and girlfriend business. And I am a bit wary, because I am not completely certain I'd like the arc that is being set up, given the first taste of it, but I am quite curious. The whole thing has a similar vibe to the simulation in Forest of the Dead, but I doubt it is related.
ETA: I also disagree that Clara's difficulty in accepting the new Doctor is strange. Yes, she has seen the other faces of the Doctor, she is aware, but being aware is completely different than the Doctor you know going away. It is quite different when it actually happens, when it is somebody you haven't seen before.
Our old friends were a bit of a side-story patched around the regeneration story, but I think it fit pretty well, and better than other similar episodes. I loved the tension that was created when the Doctor seemingly left Clara – for a moment I thought he was actually doing it. I also loved how around the time the Doctor was about to figure out things seemed familiar, he channelled ten and realised he was Scottish. "Spare parts" at the river made me suspicious, and by the time he delivered a little bit of ten I was certain where we were. And loved that he didn't.
The resolution didn't live up to the rest of the episode, although the ambiguity surrounding it made up for that – and it was pretty emotional scene. I was also kinda disappointed that the police and the other local folk were basically extras. It is one of the rare instances where they've actually set an episode to where Jenny and Vastra live, and have showed a glimpse in their regular life and have heavily hinted at the prejudice that surrounds them, yet all people simply sat there gaping at the things they haven't seen before, without any participation. (I actually prefer to see an episode-long story about Jenny, who is native of that time and place, meeting Vastra, but that doesn't mean we can't take on one of the other folks there for ride, does it?)
The phone call made me get emotional. Hey, what's up with you, it was me who just called you! Lovely.
I am deeply confused what this promised land and girlfriend business. And I am a bit wary, because I am not completely certain I'd like the arc that is being set up, given the first taste of it, but I am quite curious. The whole thing has a similar vibe to the simulation in Forest of the Dead, but I doubt it is related.
ETA: I also disagree that Clara's difficulty in accepting the new Doctor is strange. Yes, she has seen the other faces of the Doctor, she is aware, but being aware is completely different than the Doctor you know going away. It is quite different when it actually happens, when it is somebody you haven't seen before.
