800 lives???

[TheMurph]

Sorry, but I can't buy that the Kelvin was 1500 metres long. I like to think that the Kelvin also existed in the prime universe, and if it was that big it would make the original USS Enterprise look tiny in comparison. I find the idea of vessels that gigantic existing that early in the original timeline VERY hard to swallow.

I think it's very possible. Starfleet ships built after the Kelvin could have shrunk in the prime universe based on more automation. The Kelvin, being an older ship, probally had a crew of cooks, laundry staff, plumbers, and other janitorial and upkeep staff. Probally more crewman in engineering too, the bridge itself seemed quite crowded. Then as more systems of that nature become automated, with replicators and perhaps more mechanical devices, sonic showers... less plumbing, less mess hall staff, smaller crew smaller ships, and that leads to an Enterprise seen in TOS.

Then maybe after an attack by a ship as big and powerful as the Narada arrives on the scene at the point in time that it did, it may of changed the mindset of starship designers. More automation, but also more power, better weaponry, bigger warp drives, , they got to Vulcan pretty damn fast, I say these post-Narada Starfleet vessels are big heavy power pigs because the Narada changed the game. Technology in ship building advanced at a quicker level. The universe became a bit meaner and chaotic than perhaps it was in TOS's time. So, Starfleet and their ships adjusted accordingly.

Ding, ding, I think we have a winner. To me that makes the most sense. For perspective, if a WWII era Lexington class aircraft carrier can be 888 ft (271 m) long and have a complement of 2,122 I can believe a 23rd century starship would be able to have 800 people on board. Needing more support personnel than the TOS Enterprise because of it being older and having less automation and supplies makes sense to me.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's more interesting trying to figure out how 800 people got off the Kelvin. I guess there could have been more than the 20+ shuttles they showed on screen, but then again there were only like 4-5 people on the shuttle with Winona Kirk.

She was on a special medical shuttle. The other shuttles were probably loaded to capacity with people.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He also said 800 "lives," not 800 "people."

Maybe the crew was only 400 people, but every one of them owned a puppy.

I really want to see Robau's puppy, which is probably a baby Cerberus.

It's one of those hairless dogs.

 

[Disillusioned]

And so the 800 fought them in the narrow shuttlebay, where numbers counted for nothing...

 

[Nerys Myk]

what???

 

[Disillusioned]

That's just my sense of humor making itself known.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's more interesting trying to figure out how 800 people got off the Kelvin. I guess there could have been more than the 20+ shuttles they showed on screen, but then again there were only like 4-5 people on the shuttle with Winona Kirk.

She was on a special medical shuttle. The other shuttles were probably loaded to capacity with people.

If their shuttles are like these they could probably hold around 40 each
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd0648.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd0964.jpg

 

[CommanderRaytas]

The Japanese train pushers rule.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Japanese train pushers rule.

Riding Japanese mass transit is fun. When I was a Boy Scout we had to take the train from where I lived to a Scout Camp near Tokyo. The sleep cars were great. The commuter train wearing a full backback, not so much.

 

[T'Girl]

When the Narada came through there were 250 crew, 30 family and 6 tribbles.

After the attack there were 248 crew (less captain and first officer), 31 family (plus one baby) and 521 tribbles.

800 lives.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Pike was counting the lives in the prime universe too.

 

[Sector 7]

Pike said 800 lives, rather than 800 crew. I agree with those who state it would take a larger crew to man a 'realistic' starship. The naval analogies are true. I have been on aircraft carriers which are actually floating cities with airports.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Also, freezing the DVD during the shuttle launches you can see there are a few shuttles STILL IN THE BAY when the medical shuttle leaves; Winona was probably not even the last one to leave the ship. And judging by that same freeze frame, the entire upper pod probably consists of cargo bays and shuttlecraft parking; I think Kelvin's engine room is probably in the hump above the impulse engines, freeing up more space for shuttlecraft.

As for size complaints: It's been pointed out that it was NEVER canonically established that the TOS Enterprise was the largest ship in the fleet, or even the most advanced for that matter. That Starfleet ships were smaller in the 23rd century is unsupported conjecture; for all we know, the Constitution class was designed as a light cruiser/mainstay vessel and second banana to other much larger designs that we never got to see. It is again the case that even in the 24th century, Starfleet ships came in a variety of sizes; the Intrepid class, for example, is similar in size to the old Constitution class, while the Novas and Defiants are two of the tiniest Starfleet designs in canon, both serving side by side with the enormous Galaxy and Sovereign class ships.

I think Kelvin was probably the Galaxy Class of their generation. I think the TOS Enterprise was the 23rd century equivalent of the Intrepid-class. And I think that after the Narada incident, and partly to console John Archer's asshole grandson, Starfleet gave the name "Enterprise" to a new front-line exploration vessel--the 23rd century counterpart of the Galaxy Class--instead of a humble but technologically advanced light cruiser assigned to mid-range patrol duty.

 

[Timo]

The thing is, we see all the evac shuttles in the final shot, with the fiery background. There are at most eighteen of them (at screencap resolution; still waiting for the DVD).

We also see half a dozen of those up close and personal. They are all identical; Winona's shuttle only differs in having a red cross and some red paint on the hull. The interior could accommodate perhaps twenty people if Japanese pushers helped. That's 400 saved lives from the Kelvin at most.

We're left with two choices, then: either George Kirk saved lives elsewhere by ramming the Narada, even though only a handful of Kelvin people were saved. Or then Pike told Jim Kirk that his daddy saved "a hundred lives".

The latter sounds perfectly plausible: an emphatic pronunciation of "a hundred" does sound like "eight hundred", and that's how Pike would have said it. And a hundred saved from a ship that perhaps carried two hundred is perfectly in fitting with the visuals: 18 of those tiny shuttles could accommodate them, the ship could hold them in comfort, they could plausibly get out in time, and the loss of half the crew would explain the shuttles left behind.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The thing is, we see all the evac shuttles in the final shot, with the fiery background. There are at most eighteen of them (at screencap resolution; still waiting for the DVD).

I counted around twenty of them myself. But it's worth pointing out that--including Winona and baby Jim, the medical shuttle alone had at least ten people aboard. Stripping out medical equipment, the bed, the abundance of space they had aboard, twenty is a pretty conservative estimate; you can almost that many people into a Blackhawk helicopter (whose passenger compartment is quite a bit smaller than those shuttles).

It's also worth considering that the upper pod on the Kelvin BY ITSELF is the size of a WW-II escort carrier, which had complements of around thirty aircraft. If those shuttles aren't much larger than WWII fighter planes (and they don't seem to be) she could easily accommodate that many craft on board.

By strange coincidence: the Charger class escort carrier of WW-II, which is almost identical in size to the Kelvin's deflector pod, has a crew of 858. Coincidence, or cosmic prank?

 

[SilentP]

Aye, there were 20 shuttles that survived to be visible in the final shot, though whether or not more escaped a lot quicker (the crew who were right in the vicinity of the shuttlebay and not shuttle control etc.) and got further than the group we saw is up for debate. These shuttles generally look a lot larger than shuttles we've seen previously in ST (especially 24th Century shuttles), so having a large capacity overall wouldn't be such a stretch.

EDITED: To match up with newtype's post.

 

[Timo]

One could argue that there wouldn't have been any stragglers among the escaping shuttles. Nero was shooting the shuttles down, and Kirk was shooting down Nero's missiles to protect the shuttles. Any shuttle not among the group Kirk was protecting (the one with his wife and child) would have been likely to fall prey to Nero's missiles.

A shuttle count of about thirty is quite plausible for the ship, although there are many other ways to fill that dorsal structure, and many other ways to explain "shuttle 37". The TOS ship apparently had very few shuttles, but perhaps only because she had much better transporters?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jeri]

The shuttle count on a ship most likely depends on her mission.

 

[SilentP]

Does anybody have any rough estimates as to the size of the shuttles the Kevlin was carrying? I made a guess of 10 metres for length, but I could be wrong.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

One could argue that there wouldn't have been any stragglers among the escaping shuttles. Nero was shooting the shuttles down, and Kirk was shooting down Nero's missiles to protect the shuttles. Any shuttle not among the group Kirk was protecting (the one with his wife and child) would have been likely to fall prey to Nero's missiles.

I'm not sure that Nero was intentionally shooting at the shuttles, I think the missiles' guidance systems just locked onto them as high heat sources and viable targets. Fortunately, it doesn't seem that any of the missiles actually hit those shuttles, so obviously George did a good enough job holding them off.