7X13 The Name Of The Doctor(Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

[timelord1010]

Well, considering how deep that rule is burnt into the myth among fans, they'll probably address it and let the writers bullshit their way out of that corner.

Well River did give up all her regenerations to save the Doctor in "Let's Kill Hitler". That's likely a extra 9 or 10 lives right there.

But does that mean that he can really regenerate that many more times, or will he end up looking like The Master did in 'The Deadly Assassin'?

As Awesome Possum said hopefully the Timelords gave The Doctor an extra regeneration during the Time War and that could explain Hurt's Doctor.

 

[aridas sofia]

As I mentioned in the finale thread, I am beginning to think Simeon is The Other. I think this whole thing will turn out to be something hidden in plain sight.

Simeon is dead - he's been dead for a long time. Funny how every twist leads to a fixation with the unlikely - this time around it's The other rather than "it's omega! It's Susan!".

Actually, I don't think that is quite accurate. If the GI was a projection of Simeon himself, then all that died was the physical Simeon. All that was the man still exists in the GI.

 

[DalekJim]

We've already had the twist at Christmas that Simeon was the origin of the Great Intelligence. Would be pretty insane to also make him The Other.

 

[lennier1]

The new regenerations for the Master required the involvement of the high council of the Time Lords. Since the reformed Master catapulted them back into their isolation, the writers could always one day let him return as Rassilon's replacement as a leader and kill two birds with one stone. They'd only need a new actor, since Simm's version mentioned that the body was bound to die one way or the other.

 

[MacLeod]

Here's one weird observation: when the Tardis crash-landed on Trenzalore, one of the window panes cracked, as the Doctor duly noted upon exiting. This exact same window pane crack appears on the large future dead Tardis when Vastra looks up after first waking up on Trenzalore. Kind of strange; wouldn't that get repaired somehow between now and the Tardis' future (which I assume would be hundreds or thousands of years long)? Was this just artistic license by the FX folks? Or was this a subtle yet intentional hint of some sort?

Hey, I said it was a weird observation....

Not only that, but the 'tomb' version of the TARDIS control room is the same desktop theme as the one 'Eleven' recently got. Yeah, it IS a subtle, intentional hint. And a very heartbreaking one.

We're very near to THE END of the entire Doctor Who saga. 'Eleven' is Twelve, and they're sticking to the whole 13-incarnation lifecycle. When Matt Smith finally decides to leave, the next regeneration will be the LAST regeneration. The Last Doctor. An old man. Maybe ginger at last, maybe not. His birth will also see the birth of the fully-formed Dream Lord/Valeyard.

And his very last adventure, on Trenzalore, will be a 'relatively minor skirmish' as Doctor Who episodes go. The last will die as the first did - collapsing on the floor of the TARDIS from extreme old age and sheer exhaustion.

1.>The TARDIS already has all the control rooms stored even ones the Doctor hasn't uesd yet. ("The Doctors Wife"). So just because the room resembled the 11ths current one doesn't mean he changed it several times over and went back to it at some point. Or due to the TARDIS dying that was one of the few still around.

2.>Just because we've seen the Dcotor's grave doesn't mean it wasn't after his 13th life

3.>We don't know when we visited Trenzalore.

4.>Time can be re-written

 

[Eliczo]

I am beginning to think Simeon is The Other.

I haven't had the opportunity to read all of the various threads; just how is this Other? What have I missed?

The Other is a legendary figure in Time Lord History. During era of the 7th Doctor, the script editor Andrew Cartmel felt that all the mystery of the character had gone and sought to reintroduce some mystery. The Cartmel Masterplan, it was dubbed later on by fanon.

There were several hints to to the fact that there was more to the Doctor then just another Time Lord, including a wonderful line "Remembrance of the Daleks" where the 7th Doctor is talking about the Hand of Omega, and mentions "And didn't we have problems with the prototype."

Basically the Other was part of a Triumvirate consisting of him, Rassilon & Omega.

The Virgin New Adventure novels resolved this after the cancellation in 1989 with the novel "Lungbarrow" That says the the time lords were sterile and used Genetic looming technology to breed new Time Lords, The Other was said to have thrown him self into the looms to be reincarnated as the 1st Doctor.

Here's one weird observation: when the Tardis crash-landed on Trenzalore, one of the window panes cracked, as the Doctor duly noted upon exiting. This exact same window pane crack appears on the large future dead Tardis when Vastra looks up after first waking up on Trenzalore. Kind of strange; wouldn't that get repaired somehow between now and the Tardis' future (which I assume would be hundreds or thousands of years long)? Was this just artistic license by the FX folks? Or was this a subtle yet intentional hint of some sort?

Hey, I said it was a weird observation....

Not only that, but the 'tomb' version of the TARDIS control room is the same desktop theme as the one 'Eleven' recently got. Yeah, it IS a subtle, intentional hint. And a very heartbreaking one.

We're very near to THE END of the entire Doctor Who saga. 'Eleven' is Twelve, and they're sticking to the whole 13-incarnation lifecycle. When Matt Smith finally decides to leave, the next regeneration will be the LAST regeneration. The Last Doctor. An old man. Maybe ginger at last, maybe not. His birth will also see the birth of the fully-formed Dream Lord/Valeyard.

And his very last adventure, on Trenzalore, will be a 'relatively minor skirmish' as Doctor Who episodes go. The last will die as the first did - collapsing on the floor of the TARDIS from extreme old age and sheer exhaustion.

I do think that John Hurt plays the real 9th incarnation, but no way will the series end after next doctor. The BBC wouldn't stick to an old idea from the series if it prevents it continiung, and anyway there are ways around the 13 lives limit, the Time Lords gave The Master a new set.

 

[Procutus]

The Other is a legendary figure in Time Lord History. During era of the 7th Doctor, the script editor Andrew Cartmel felt that all the mystery of the character had gone and sought to reintroduce some mystery. The Cartmel Masterplan, it was dubbed later on by fanon.

There were several hints to to the fact that there was more to the Doctor then just another Time Lord, including a wonderful line "Remembrance of the Daleks" where the 7th Doctor is talking about the Hand of Omega, and mentions "And didn't we have problems with the prototype."

Basically the Other was part of a Triumvirate consisting of him, Rassilon & Omega.

Thanks!

 

[Sindatur]

Pre-Hartnell Doctor - The John Hurt Doctor could have been an awful person, and decided/promised to reform himself, and dubbed himself The Doctor in accordance with that Promise. Then, he went on to betray that promise, until he Regenerated in Hartnell-Doctor.

Pre-Pertwee Doctor - We never saw Troughton become Pertwee, maybe he became Hurt and was even more bitter then Pertwee's Doctor was.

And of Course the Post-McGann/Pre-Eccelston Doctor theories, when have already been delved into.

I think any of these could be made to work well, I don't really like the idea of a Future Doctor 11 hasn't met yet, though. If it was The Valleyard or something like that, that would be OK since The Doctor already has had dealings with him, despite him being a Future incarnation

About killing him after 13 Incarnations, nah...They'll either ignore it, let the SJA "537 Lives" (or however many it was) line explain it, or come up with a story to give him more life(s)

 

[Skellington]

Well, considering how deep that rule is burnt into the myth among fans, they'll probably address it and let the writers bullshit their way out of that corner.

Well River did give up all her regenerations to save the Doctor in "Let's Kill Hitler". That's likely a extra 9 or 10 lives right there.

It can't be a straightforward transfer of regens, though, or he'd give them right back. Presumably he would be giving her fewer regenerations than he'd be losing. Therefore it makes sense that he didn't receive a whole lot of regens from her, and possibly not even a whole one.

 

[JoeZhang]

Pre-Hartnell Doctor - The John Hurt Doctor could have been an awful person, and decided/promised to reform himself, and dubbed himself The Doctor in accordance with that Promise. Then, he went on to betray that promise, until he Regenerated in Hartnell-Doctor.

Let's say you set off on a grand adventure and decide that your new name is Alfred Bestmountfut but on your adventure you are overcome with emotion and have sex with the Queen's dog. it's your most shameful secret that you are trying to cover up, that you want no-one to discover and you try to make amends for - in your new guise you call yourself.... Alfred Bestmountful.

That's the other reason it doesn't work if he was used before Hartnell and it does between Doctors - because he is the Doctor nobody knows by the name The Doctor so it can be a big event but nobody knows that it was the doctor responsible - which is also why I think it is not the time-war but something just after.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Letting Doctor Who die a natural death at the end of the 13'th incarnation may be a simple matter of practicality for the BBC. Just like in 1989, the BBC (remember, owned by the British government and run like our country's PBS) simply can't afford to produce it much longer (hence this last split-season). At least not to current US sci-fi TV standards, and certainly not to longer than 13 episodes a season. The country's chronic economic woes and government budget crises won't allow it. Finding a co-producer isn't an option either; trying to find one was a large part of the reason Doctor Who stayed off the air for 16 years (minus that one-off TV movie which Universal chipped in for).

If I was a BBC exec, I'd be thinking right now "The sooner this thing ends, the sooner we're freed up money-wise to produce other shows and the sooner we can farm it out to Hollywood for the JJ Abrams treatment and rake in the profits from the licensing fee." The 13 lives limit, and inserting John Hurt as this lost Doctor, moves the saga very close to Trenzalore - to the point where the Beeb can end it without facing a backlash from the fans (as they did in '84). Yeah, they'll still grumble, but the novels, comics and radio dramas continue to be churned out on autopilot for next to nothing and will continue to do so for years to come.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Where'd you get any of this from?

 

[JoeZhang]

I'll have to be honest, I think you have got your hands on a good stash.

 

[Jax]

Letting Doctor Who die a natural death at the end of the 13'th incarnation may be a simple matter of practicality for the BBC. Just like in 1989, the BBC (remember, owned by the British government and run like our country's PBS) simply can't afford to produce it much longer (hence this last split-season). At least not to current US sci-fi TV standards, and certainly not to longer than 13 episodes a season. The country's chronic economic woes and government budget crises won't allow it. Finding a co-producer isn't an option either; trying to find one was a large part of the reason Doctor Who stayed off the air for 16 years (minus that one-off TV movie which Universal chipped in for).

If I was a BBC exec, I'd be thinking right now "The sooner this thing ends, the sooner we're freed up money-wise to produce other shows and the sooner we can farm it out to Hollywood for the JJ Abrams treatment and rake in the profits from the licensing fee." The 13 lives limit, and inserting John Hurt as this lost Doctor, moves the saga very close to Trenzalore - to the point where the Beeb can end it without facing a backlash from the fans (as they did in '84). Yeah, they'll still grumble, but the novels, comics and radio dramas continue to be churned out on autopilot for next to nothing and will continue to do so for years to come.

No

 

[MacLeod]

BBC owned by the Government, that's a new one on me.

The BBC is funded by the public via the license fee, it has a charter to cater for all tastes (and that includes Sci-Fi fans).

The country's economic woes and the governments budget crisis doesn't have any impact on the BBC. (Though the BBC charter is coming up for review soon with the government, but at the end of the day I suspect a majority still support how the BBC is funded).

The BBC via it's subisderies earns millions from DW.

 

[davejames]

So I wonder what this means for the 50th. Will we see Ten, Eleven, and Clara jumping around in time and interacting with old clips of the Doctors like in the teaser? Or is that a mission only Clara goes on, while Ten and Eleven remain behind and focus on stopping the Great Intelligence in some other way?

And after this episode it seems pretty apparent that the "museum with the paintings" is just a representation of something going on in the Doctor's mind, where each painting is basically a window into the past that the Doctor's are using to monitor Clara.

 

[SeerSGB]

Here's one weird observation: when the Tardis crash-landed on Trenzalore, one of the window panes cracked, as the Doctor duly noted upon exiting. This exact same window pane crack appears on the large future dead Tardis when Vastra looks up after first waking up on Trenzalore. Kind of strange; wouldn't that get repaired somehow between now and the Tardis' future (which I assume would be hundreds or thousands of years long)? Was this just artistic license by the FX folks? Or was this a subtle yet intentional hint of some sort?

Hey, I said it was a weird observation....

Not only that, but the 'tomb' version of the TARDIS control room is the same desktop theme as the one 'Eleven' recently got. Yeah, it IS a subtle, intentional hint. And a very heartbreaking one.

We're very near to THE END of the entire Doctor Who saga. 'Eleven' is Twelve, and they're sticking to the whole 13-incarnation lifecycle. When Matt Smith finally decides to leave, the next regeneration will be the LAST regeneration. The Last Doctor. An old man. Maybe ginger at last, maybe not. His birth will also see the birth of the fully-formed Dream Lord/Valeyard.

And his very last adventure, on Trenzalore, will be a 'relatively minor skirmish' as Doctor Who episodes go. The last will die as the first did - collapsing on the floor of the TARDIS from extreme old age and sheer exhaustion.

1.>The TARDIS already has all the control rooms stored even ones the Doctor hasn't uesd yet. ("The Doctors Wife"). So just because the room resembled the 11ths current one doesn't mean he changed it several times over and went back to it at some point. Or due to the TARDIS dying that was one of the few still around.

2.>Just because we've seen the Dcotor's grave doesn't mean it wasn't after his 13th life

3.>We don't know when we visited Trenzalore.

4.>Time can be re-written

My going theory on the current "stripped down" console room is that's the default setting This is what you get when you turn off most if not all the customing.

 

[Sindatur]

Letting Doctor Who die a natural death at the end of the 13'th incarnation may be a simple matter of practicality for the BBC. Just like in 1989, the BBC (remember, owned by the British government and run like our country's PBS) simply can't afford to produce it much longer (hence this last split-season). At least not to current US sci-fi TV standards, and certainly not to longer than 13 episodes a season. The country's chronic economic woes and government budget crises won't allow it. Finding a co-producer isn't an option either; trying to find one was a large part of the reason Doctor Who stayed off the air for 16 years (minus that one-off TV movie which Universal chipped in for).

If I was a BBC exec, I'd be thinking right now "The sooner this thing ends, the sooner we're freed up money-wise to produce other shows and the sooner we can farm it out to Hollywood for the JJ Abrams treatment and rake in the profits from the licensing fee." The 13 lives limit, and inserting John Hurt as this lost Doctor, moves the saga very close to Trenzalore - to the point where the Beeb can end it without facing a backlash from the fans (as they did in '84). Yeah, they'll still grumble, but the novels, comics and radio dramas continue to be churned out on autopilot for next to nothing and will continue to do so for years to come.

First and foremost, the money invested in making Doctor Who is made back with extra from selling the Series (Unless things have changed this half Series) and although the ratings have gone down, everyone's ratings have gone down, hence why the share hasn't changed.

 

[Atticus]

BBC owned by the Government, that's a new one on me.

The BBC is funded by the public via the license fee, it has a charter to cater for all tastes (and that includes Sci-Fi fans).

Actually, from a technical POV, the license fee is considered a tax. It is paid into the Government's Consolidated Fund, before a convention has the Department for Culture, Media and Sport voting to hand it to the BBC for their own use. This is why the BBC have to negotiate with the Government of the day in regard to license fee increases.

 

[DalekJim]

I think Murray Gold's music is generally shit but it was nice hearing his Gallifrey theme again as I've always liked it.