That was Donna? Where's the rest of her?
I loved it. Mels did a great job, I could see her as River the second she appeared, and sure enough, she did turn out to be River.
6.5x08 Let's Kill Hitler (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!!)
- Thread starter Samurai8472
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That was Donna? Where's the rest of her?
I loved it. Mels did a great job, I could see her as River the second she appeared, and sure enough, she did turn out to be River.
Do sports fans stop supporting their team if they aren't performing?
Some do, some don't. Some are glory hunters who stick with the popular teams. I'm not saying I don't get being disappointed with shows and sticking with them. I did through most of Voy and Ent, I'm not keen on this series of Doctor Who, but I have the decency not to come here and whinge about it not being to my liking every little chance I get or insult the production staff with every little piece of news. I say what I thought and leave it at that unless it turns in to a conversations.
I don't think that's entirely fair. In RTDs era the Doctor had a daughter that regenerated. The Doctor siphoned his regeneration energy into his hand to save himself. He used his lifeforce to energizes the Tardis in "rise of the Cybermen". In Tennant's last episode he was able to survive long enough on a slow regeneration to say "goodbye" to everyone. Heck, Regeneration wasn't even needed to bring 'The Master' back.
Who fans in particular often seem to defend criticisms by pointing out that the show had done it once before as if that's the end of it.
"Those CGI bugs looked really bad."
"You saw Planet of the Spiders, right?"
EDIT: Rereading this more closely, I apologize on this one because of the part in the original post about "since the RTD era". Please disregard what I said in this instance.
EDIT2: Shit, I'm having brain farts today, I guess my point does stand because the "since the RTD era" was in the criticism and not the original post.
I'm going back to bed...Yeah and this was a fun romp and I do enjoy the show even if I often find myself wishing other elements were emphasized sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Is there a website somewhere with a chronological map of River's appearances? On her own timeline, I mean. It's getting hard to keep track
My order would be something like this (I'll do this just from the River Song incarnation, since otherwise you'd watch episodes like "A Good Man Goes To War" and "The Impossible Astronaut" twice).
"Let's Kill Hitler"
"The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang"
"A Good Man Goes to War"
"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon"
"The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Stone"
"Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead"
I know there's the implication that she's been doing the episodes directly backwards from our perspective, but that would mean she stole more vortex manipulators off-screen before "Good Man" and "Impossible Astronaut," and I think that's just a tick stupid. It's a bit arbitrary whether she did "Good Man" before or after "Astronaut." I'm mostly going by how she reacted to Rory, which implies she hasn't seen much of him. And she might not remember him from "The Big Bang" since all her contact with him was while he'd been eaten by the crack, so she wouldn't have recognized him, same as Amy didn't.
At the very least, seeing the River Song origin story means that they're finally going to do some episodes where she and the Doctor have at least some common history. Yay, the diaries aren't pointless after all!
My biggest complaint against this episode is that it threw too much stuff at the viewer without exploring it enough and without depicting it properly.
We were sent back to an interesting moment in history, an amazing setting for a local adventure, but the only purpose it served was a few funny lines. The setting was extremely underutilized, most of the time the surroundings simply weren't there – they didn't get into trouble, they didn't cause confusion, they simply decided to resolve their family problems right in the middle of it all as if it didn't exist. It was a terribly unrealistic misrepresentation of the time and place too.
We learnt next to nothing about the operators of the robot and their mission, the only thing that happened on their ship were robots trying to kill everybody. Surely there has to be more going on board, if only the characters given how interesting and disturbing their mission is. It was an interesting concept, but in the end all we saw was an incompetent crew, absurd privilege policy and a few robots trapping Amy and Rory. So, the robot had killer robots that shot everyone on sight based on a lousy white-list, but nobody had the guts to try and snatch the screwdriver out of Amy's hand? And they simply let her access classified information because she was... family? And I'm slightly disappointed that there was no close-up of the shape-shifting technology. That would have been glorious.
Mels? She barely had any screen time. I liked her very much, and they immediately jumped into regeneration mode. They introduced a new version of a main character and they killed her off immediately? I really liked her, and I would have loved if they teased her more before she learnt who River was or how she looked.
I think I might have liked the episode better if it focused on Nazi Germany with Mels throughout, with more flashbacks and the reveal at the end. Then the young River would have made a good separate episode with a shape-shifting crimal-hunting robot from the future that's explored and depicted properly. Plus, they could introduce some time-travel mumbo-jumbo that left the possibility that Mels returns (e.g. a future version of her regenerates after this one disappears) for more twists.
I still voted Geronimo because it still managed to wow me quite a few times, the flashback sequence, the Mels reveal and River's character growth alone made this episode. And I managed to like it a lot even though I watched in in an awful mood and condition, so that speaks for its quality. But awesome or not, you can't simply leave Hitler in the cupboard and forget him.
We were sent back to an interesting moment in history, an amazing setting for a local adventure, but the only purpose it served was a few funny lines. The setting was extremely underutilized, most of the time the surroundings simply weren't there – they didn't get into trouble, they didn't cause confusion, they simply decided to resolve their family problems right in the middle of it all as if it didn't exist. It was a terribly unrealistic misrepresentation of the time and place too.
We learnt next to nothing about the operators of the robot and their mission, the only thing that happened on their ship were robots trying to kill everybody. Surely there has to be more going on board, if only the characters given how interesting and disturbing their mission is. It was an interesting concept, but in the end all we saw was an incompetent crew, absurd privilege policy and a few robots trapping Amy and Rory. So, the robot had killer robots that shot everyone on sight based on a lousy white-list, but nobody had the guts to try and snatch the screwdriver out of Amy's hand? And they simply let her access classified information because she was... family? And I'm slightly disappointed that there was no close-up of the shape-shifting technology. That would have been glorious.
Mels? She barely had any screen time. I liked her very much, and they immediately jumped into regeneration mode. They introduced a new version of a main character and they killed her off immediately? I really liked her, and I would have loved if they teased her more before she learnt who River was or how she looked.
I think I might have liked the episode better if it focused on Nazi Germany with Mels throughout, with more flashbacks and the reveal at the end. Then the young River would have made a good separate episode with a shape-shifting crimal-hunting robot from the future that's explored and depicted properly. Plus, they could introduce some time-travel mumbo-jumbo that left the possibility that Mels returns (e.g. a future version of her regenerates after this one disappears) for more twists.
I still voted Geronimo because it still managed to wow me quite a few times, the flashback sequence, the Mels reveal and River's character growth alone made this episode. And I managed to like it a lot even though I watched in in an awful mood and condition, so that speaks for its quality. But awesome or not, you can't simply leave Hitler in the cupboard and forget him.
I'm a longtime fan and someone who initially liked the Moffat stuff, but I've got to say I didn't like that episode at all.
First I got smacked in the face with a big glob of annoying when Amy's bestest friend in the whole world, who we've never heard of before, shows up in a red sportscar with police in pursuit and pulls out a big gun before demanding they go off to kill Hitler. It's basically Moffat demanding that we a) find this character kewl and b) get emotionally invested in her from the start. Blah.
The Hitler stuff was pretty tacky, and River putting on the German military jacket (thankfully, no swastika armband on it) over her bra was about the height of tastelessness.
I think I'm just tired of the show feeding off of itself. It seems like everything is keyed around the Doctor being the most important (and interesting) man in the universe. Which is actually pretty pompous and boring. I liked the show better when he was just an eccentric guy with a blue box getting into weird situations each week.
Stay thirsty, my friends.
First I got smacked in the face with a big glob of annoying when Amy's bestest friend in the whole world, who we've never heard of before, shows up in a red sportscar with police in pursuit and pulls out a big gun before demanding they go off to kill Hitler. It's basically Moffat demanding that we a) find this character kewl and b) get emotionally invested in her from the start. Blah.
The Hitler stuff was pretty tacky, and River putting on the German military jacket (thankfully, no swastika armband on it) over her bra was about the height of tastelessness.
I think I'm just tired of the show feeding off of itself. It seems like everything is keyed around the Doctor being the most important (and interesting) man in the universe. Which is actually pretty pompous and boring. I liked the show better when he was just an eccentric guy with a blue box getting into weird situations each week.
Stay thirsty, my friends.
I think this could easily have been a 2 parter with a little more of the Mels backstory, Hitler / Berlin, but I enjoyed it.
I am, however, puzzled by the perception that many posters would like the RTD / Tenant era back. Russell did a great job bringing back the show, but he was a horrible writer - he wrote all of the worst episodes (New Earth, Stolen Earth, Journeys End for instance) and none of the really good ones.
I realise it's all a matter of personal opinion, but I wouldn't swap the current version of Who for any of the previous ones - the plotting is clever, there are some great twists and much as I liked David Tenant, the Karen Gillan / Matt Smith pairing are my favourite companion and Doctor, with the possible exception of Sladen / Pertwee...
More of the same please !
I am, however, puzzled by the perception that many posters would like the RTD / Tenant era back. Russell did a great job bringing back the show, but he was a horrible writer - he wrote all of the worst episodes (New Earth, Stolen Earth, Journeys End for instance) and none of the really good ones.
I realise it's all a matter of personal opinion, but I wouldn't swap the current version of Who for any of the previous ones - the plotting is clever, there are some great twists and much as I liked David Tenant, the Karen Gillan / Matt Smith pairing are my favourite companion and Doctor, with the possible exception of Sladen / Pertwee...
More of the same please !
As far as I'm concerned, he succeeded: I thought she was cool and I got emotionally invested in her from the start.
And come on, how silly is the bowdlerisation of the word "cool"? As if we were so insecure in our feelings that we felt we were somehow above being moved by silly things.
It seemed in character for River, I know my first thought when I saw that Vette screaming through there was River Song.
I palmed so many faces during that introduction. I'm glad she turned out to be River but it doesn't excuse the fact that we're supposed to buy that Rory and Amy hung out with a gun-toting career criminal pre-Doctor.
Eh, given how fast they got along with the gun-toting River and the mad man with the box, I don't think they would disown a childhood friend just because she stole a bus. They don't strike me as the people who would view theft too seriously. And if Mels was introduced earlier, the Internet would have guessed her identity immediately. Good thing that they didn't.
Not to mention that except for the wedding, Amy's childhood friends didn't exist before the reboot of the universe. If Mels was there, she would certainly be the odd one. The whole of season 5 leaves you with the feeling that in her childhood Amy is alone, and even afterwards this doesn't change; it's only after The Big Bang that it does. The wedding is the only moment where Mels could have appeared.
Not to mention that except for the wedding, Amy's childhood friends didn't exist before the reboot of the universe. If Mels was there, she would certainly be the odd one. The whole of season 5 leaves you with the feeling that in her childhood Amy is alone, and even afterwards this doesn't change; it's only after The Big Bang that it does. The wedding is the only moment where Mels could have appeared.
^Also, until Melody was born she technically didn't exist at all.
Yep. Time can change.
I was a little sad that Mels got so little screen time... I thought she was awesome. A much more interesting Ace.
But, then, I'm also glad we didn't have her hanging around for 5 episodes and then have her turn into Melody.
Yep. I think that was a deliberate set-up of a River Song entrance, only to double-reverse subvert it. In fact, a lot of Mels in that scene seems just so River, starting with being freaky turned-on by the Doctor. And of course, "When I grew up, I was going to marry you."
Um, I don't think that's correct. According to the in-universe laws, she must have existed – River obviously existed during her adventures with the Doctor and Amy.
The point is that even if she did, it would have been damn odd if she was there – she would stand out too much. And as the others were erased by time pre-Big Bang, they simply left gaps in which Amy was alone, so it makes sense to find her almost always alone even if Mels was there much of the time.
Now that I think about it though, a single scene where she appears would have been nice.
I enjoyed it, and while I'll agree with some of the negatives others have pointed out, I have to say not many of them occurred to me while watching the episode. I was surprised the Hitler aspect was barely there, despite the title and what the promos implied, and I also liked the Doctor's new longer coat - hopefully he won't tuck that back into the wardrobe to be forgotten.
Who fans in particular often seem to defend criticisms by pointing out that the show had done it once before as if that's the end of it.
"Those CGI bugs looked really bad."
"You saw Planet of the Spiders, right?"
EDIT: Rereading this more closely, I apologize on this one because of the part in the original post about "since the RTD era". Please disregard what I said in this instance.
EDIT2: Shit, I'm having brain farts today, I guess my point does stand because the "since the RTD era" was in the criticism and not the original post.
While I'm not entirely sure if you disagree with me or not anymore (
), I'll point out the limited reason I brought it up. Someone says "this episode is stupid, I pine for the days when ___ was in charge" I think it's perfectly valid to point that when ___ was in charge, similar stuff happened. It strikes me as hypocrisy otherwise.I loved the RTD era and I love current Who. But to cherrypick criticisms for the present while having rose-tinted glasses for the past is dishonest.