50th Anniversary Rewatch Thread

[NickintheATL]

A more detailed analysis than usual for me, because this episode is a passionate favorite of mine. I don't think this one gets remembered more than "A Private Little War" for its statements about war (at least as far as I can tell).

Next week: Spores!

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[The Old Mixer]

While this story wasn’t a direct result of that conflict, the end result of what took place on Eminiar VII certainly could be construed as a commentary about the war that was going on.

Perhaps a commentary on the proxy war situation...but I think even more likely a comment on the larger Cold War itself...a seemingly perpetual standoff based on the threat of mutual annihilation.

This episode has to be Kirk's finest "set these backwards aliens straight" moment.
"We make the real thing, Councilman. I could destroy this planet."
"I'm a barbarian. You said it yourself."
General Order 24...like the Corbomite Maneuver, but with very real stakes for the opponent.
"I didn't start it, Councilman...but I'm liable to finish it."
By the time he says, "Stop it? I'm counting on it," he's laying it on a bit thick.

If only the Eminians had been as quick to explain their situation as they were to try deceiving everyone to beam down to the planet. And if the Vendikans don't want war, why do they attack non-Eminian starships? They must know that they're playing with real fire there.

We've got our Federation, but still with the "Vulcanians"! Is this only our second mind meld? Definitely our best neck pinch setup! And we get some real Kirk Fu straight from the Shat without the bad stunt doubles.

"They go in, but they do not come out." An advertising slogan a decade ahead of its product:

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Single-person disintegration facilities, with millions of casualties per year? That doesn't seem practical. And sonic attacks on a ship in orbit?

This episode has lots of talk of war and diplomacy, but I don't think they mention of the Prime Directive once...and I like it!

 

[dahj]

I don't think this one gets remembered more than "A Private Little War" for its statements about war (at least as far as I can tell).

I think people remember and reference the crappier episodes like "A Private Little War" and "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" more because they're so bloody literal, they beat you over the head with their messages that can be summed up in less than one sentence, so they're easier to remember.

We've got our Federation,

Yep, the United Federation of Planets gets a first full mention, but this was obviously a harsher Federation than the 24th century one, because someone somewhere has explicitly written in an order to annihilate an entire planet and its population.

And sonic attacks on a ship in orbit?

Apparently they don't know that in space no one can hear you scream.

This episode has lots of talk of war and diplomacy, but I don't think they mention of the Prime Directive once...and I like it!

I guess with Enterprise under attack and these guys being a spacefaring civilization, the directive didn't apply.

Not sure why would the Eminians agree to accept Ambassador Idiot McAsshole as the peace brokering guy when he bought every single bit of bullshit they were selling to him...

 

[The Old Mixer]

Yep, the United Federation of Planets gets a first full mention, but this was obviously a harsher Federation than the 24th century one, because someone somewhere has explicitly written in an order to annihilate an entire planet and its population.

That's the problem with treating Starfleet and the Federation as one and the same...which this episode doesn't. Kirk is a military commander, Fox is a civilian diplomat.

 

[dahj]

That's the problem with treating Starfleet and the Federation as one and the same...which this episode doesn't. Kirk is a military commander, Fox is a civilian diplomat.

Putting aside the whole "is Starfleet a military organization" debate, that order is essentially "Commit Genocide!" Even the armies that have committed such atrocities on Earth rarely have an explicit order to do something like that actually written down somewhere in a rulebook, and the few that might have ain't exactly the shiniest examples of Earth's best...

It's ridiculous beyond belief that such an order would exist, and even more so that the decision to implement it would fall on any starship captain's discretion.

 

[Tallguy]

Many things about this episode have come to bug me too much.

First off, even if there is no literal property damage, why is the population sustainable? If you can kill and kill and kill then why is one or both of the worlds' populations not dropping below what would be needed to continue to make war, much less survive?

Is property and manufacturing simulated? (I'm guessing yes, because the Enterprise is eliminated.) What about technological advancement? Can no one develop the simulated equivalent of the longbow or the submarine or the atomic bomb?

How can there be total parity for that long?

Second, what are they fighting about? I know Star Trek seems to think that this is an inconsequential question. By Star Trek's lights war in and of itself is bad and avoidable. (Unless you're DS9.)

But Kirk (and by extension Star Trek) swaggers in here and says "Heeey, you crazy kids just have to figure out what to agree on!" (Yes, I just recast Captain Kirk with Bill Murray.) Ok. Now let's have that conversation with Germany and the UK in 1938 (for example). Or for that matter the North and the South of the United States? What do you do when there is no "agree to disagree"? Or if part of the agreement is "Fine. You can keep eating the indolent 1/10th of your population (and 1/5th of ours) for breakfast. I guess we'll be fine with it."

Of course the answer to all of this is "It's a metaphor, dummy. It's not meant to be taken so literally." Well, I hate stupid metaphors.

Oh, and we're continuing the proud Star Trek tradition of "Anyone not from the Enterprise is a ninny-head." Sure the Enterprise is the finest ship in the fleet. Because the fleet and the Federation are all morons.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Second, what are they fighting about?

I'd like to know that, too. Is there anything in Treklit that answers this question? Please don't tell me it started because one of the planet's leaders razzed the other, or something stupid like that.

 

[dahj]

First off, even if there is no literal property damage, why is the population sustainable?

Their names have numbers after them... maybe they're clones?

Please don't tell me it started because one of the planet's leaders razzed the other, or something stupid like that.

Eminians' choice of hats was a fashion insult to the Vendikans.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Their names have numbers after them... maybe they're clones?

That's an interesting theory. Unless they're the whatever-numbered person in their family to bear that name. Maybe with so many dead they decided it was easier than having last names and lineages. They just needed something to call each other until they were chosen to die.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Putting aside the whole "is Starfleet a military organization" debate, that order is essentially "Commit Genocide!" Even the armies that have committed such atrocities on Earth rarely have an explicit order to do something like that actually written down somewhere in a rulebook, and the few that might have ain't exactly the shiniest examples of Earth's best...

It's ridiculous beyond belief that such an order would exist, and even more so that the decision to implement it would fall on any starship captain's discretion.

I like General Order 24...it's hardcore, a demonstration that these people live in a dangerous universe where such an option may be needed under extreme circumstances. Another metaphor for a nuclear deterrent.

Of course the answer to all of this is "It's a metaphor, dummy. It's not meant to be taken so literally."

Saved me from having to respond.

 

[NickintheATL]

I can't believe I failed to mention anything about General Order 24 in my initial writeup. Here are some additional thoughts from me.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^

Now, was Kirk bluffing, was he making up regulations?

He was bluffing, or at least playing chicken...his bluff wasn't an empty threat like Corbomite, it had very real potential consequences. But he definitely wasn't making up the regulation--Scotty knew what he was talking about.

Ultimately, it's deterrence through the threat of mutual destruction. You kill us, we'll kill you.

 

[UnknownSample]

General Order 24 would be there for instances like Operation Annihilate, not for the possibility of genocide because a starship commander feels like it. As for not having something like that on the books where anyone can see it, I'm sure it was classified. When someone gives a specific order to do some horrible thing, that might not get into writing, but this isn't that kind of "order". It's laying out a kind of order that might be given by somebody someday, not an actual action to be covered up.
--------
Tallguy, it would be too big a job, taking on all these points, but I don't think they're valid. How is the population sustained? Populations have withstood extended wars before.
---------------
"Can no one develop the simulated equivalent of the longbow or the submarine or the atomic bomb?" What do you mean? They're using simulated nuclear bombs. A simulated longbow? Why that?
-------------------
It's a painful hard fact in the real world that, eventually, any war stops being about its original causes, and becomes about bitterness and murderous rage over the last few enemy attacks. What's the war about? After 500 years, it's about ITSELF. It really is. If the last attack wiped out your family, you're not going to CARE about supposed original causes. You have all the reason to fight that you need.
==========
In previous centuries, the population didn't know or care about reasons. Your country called, and it was your duty to fight.

 

[dahj]

I like General Order 24...it's hardcore, a demonstration that these people live in a dangerous universe where such an option may be needed under extreme circumstances.

Even if we accept that the Federation and Starfleet would condone genocide under any circumstances, and that's a pretty huge "if", there's still a problem that this order makes no practical sense.

If you think about it, it describes a situation in which a Starship encounters a planet with a civilization and the Captain can, by himself, make a judgment that immediate annihilation of that civilization is necessary.

But here's the Catch-22, if a single Starship is capable of doing that, that would mean that said civilization has no defensive capabilities, no starships of its own to fight back. No way to defend itself would mean no way to attack anyone, making the judgement to annihilate extremely harsh.

For a civilization to be a threat of the magnitude that would require immediate annihilation, it would have to be able to swat a single Starship with relative ease, and certainly before they have the time to blow up an entire planet.

It's an order that can't be implemented, and if it can, really shouldn't be...

 

[The Old Mixer]

^ It's not about genocide, it's about deterrence. It's a starship's nuclear option, in a frontier setting where the people who are out there would be the ones making the call when to use it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
These are subjects that are very much of the time of the TV show.
And...

General Order 24 would be there for instances like Operation Annihilate

I agree that would be a good example of where it might actually be implemented in a practical manner...an alien lifeform that can't be reasoned with and threatens other planets, but is still vulnerable to a planetary bombardment.

The bottom line, though, is that it's a hypothetical "doomsday option" that we never actually see implemented. When it is invoked, it's treated as a big deal, not something that starship commanders use trivially. Garth's crew mutinied to stop him from using it, and he only tried to because he was insane.

 

[dahj]

It's not about genocide, it's about deterrence.

That's certainly how it was intended to be used in this episode, with Kirk obviously bluffing, but the point is, it still exists as an actual order, and implementing that order is effectively genocide.
There's really no sugarcoating that.

The bottom line, though, is that it's a hypothetical "doomsday option" that we never actually see implemented.

But that's also the thing, people don't usually make rules about hypothetical situations, we make em after we need them, and only if the situation that requires them is likely to recur. Like the Talos general order, Pike first had to go to Talos for the higher ups to decide they want none of that, thank you very much, making it a rule to stay away.

So this kinda implies that at some point a starship encountered some planet, and regardless of what actually transpired there, when it came back to brass who were reviewing the decisions, they looked at the situation and decided that the best thing that captain could have done was just to annihilate everything. And not only that, but they thought such a situation might occur again so they made it a rule.

That just does not sound like Starfleet, not even a harsher 23rd century Starfleet,
That's more Terran Empire territory...

I agree that would be a good example of where it might actually be implemented in a practical manner

I don't. I haven't seen the episode in awhile, but weren't those creatures just controlling the population? To implement the order would mean killing every last human on the planet.
Imagine if a more trigger happy captain was there, he might not have bothered with trying to save everybody and just lit the place up. You know, a captain like, lets say...

Garth's crew mutinied to stop him from using it

That's all the evidence one needs for just how bad of an idea this is, had his crew been slightly more loyal and followed orders, the Federation would have an actual genocide on their hands, done completely by the book.

And Garth isn't the only insane captain we've seen on Star Trek...

 

[The Old Mixer]

There's really no sugarcoating that.

Which is fine by me, because it doesn't need sugarcoating. It's just one of those things on TOS that doesn't fit into the later kinder, gentler, "we've evolved beyond that" mentality of TNG-era Trek. And it doesn't need to, because this is a century earlier.

So this kinda implies that at some point a starship encountered some planet, and regardless of what actually transpired there, when it came back to brass who were reviewing the decisions, they looked at the situation and decided that the best thing that captain could have done was just to annihilate everything. And not only that, but they thought such a situation might occur again so they made it a rule.

Which sound like a fascinating possibility that inspires the imagination about the sorts of situations that past starship missions encountered. Several TOS episodes involved lost ships in eras past or the more immediate past...there must have been a lot of untold tales of Starfleet that didn't have happy endings with laughter on the bridge.

I haven't seen the episode in awhile, but weren't those creatures just controlling the population? To implement the order would mean killing every last human on the planet.

Which might have been the only option if a countermeasure against the parasites wasn't forthcoming. It's not supposed to be a pretty possibility.

Imagine if a more trigger happy captain was there, he might not have bothered with trying to save everybody and just lit the place up.

And that's why starship commanders are supposed to be the best of the best...and I'm sure that there are heavy consequences if one of them uses such an option when it wasn't the only option available.

 

[dahj]

Which sound like a fascinating possibility that inspires the imagination about the sorts of situations that past starship missions encountered.

I'm pretty sure they never implemented that order though, or the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and others would flaunt it in Federation's sanctimonious face whenever they tried to claim the moral high ground.

Which might have been the only option if a countermeasure against the parasites wasn't forthcoming.

But there's so many options before that. They could have quarantined the planet and got the best minds in the Federation to work on a solution for as long as it takes, there was no need for immediate annihilation.

And that's why starship commanders are supposed to be the best of the best...

Keywords, "supposed to", in reality often aren't

 

[The Old Mixer]

At the time this episode was made, the Romulans were a mysterious enemy who'd just been encountered for the first time in a century; the Klingons were still just around the corner; and the Cardassians were over 20 years in the future. None of that was a consideration when General Order 24 was conceived.

 

[UnknownSample]

Killing a million people on the planet in Op: Annihilate is actually what was being discussed openly as the only practical idea they had thus far. Unless they thought of something else, that was the plan. Part of the reason may have been the intense drive of that million to pass the parasites on to the next system. Maybe they couldn't be sure they'd catch everybody. Another reason may be that it was unthinkable to allow the colonists to go on indefinitely with literal torture level pain.