2012

[iguana_tonante]

Well, the quantum leap in evolution thing was just my two Quatloos worth, so that might very well be BS, but there is a method to my madness. Allyn Gibson is technically correct, officially, there is no such thing as an I Ching calender, but, I was refering to the research of Terrence & Dennis McKenna and their book "The Invisable Landscape" In which they analyzed the "King Wen" sequence of the I Ching, and discovered it was based on a lunar calender, from which they found they were able to 'map' history with. It ends, of course, on 2012, only later did they find out this was also the end date for the Mayan calender! For those who are interested, the connection between the I ching and the DNA is found in the book "DNA and the I Ching" by Johnson F.Yan. Another good book connecting all the above together is "The Mayan Factor" by Jos'e Arguelles. So there is lots of info out there for those interested. Actually the fact that all these calenders often begin and end at the same time isn't all that mysterious, because they're based on natural cycles and rythyms such as days, years, solstices etc. even sunspot cycles, so it'd be surprising if they weren't coinciding.

Lots of bullshit.

 

[miraclefan]

Well, the quantum leap in evolution thing was just my two Quatloos worth, so that might very well be BS, but there is a method to my madness. Allyn Gibson is technically correct, officially, there is no such thing as an I Ching calender, but, I was refering to the research of Terrence & Dennis McKenna and their book "The Invisable Landscape" In which they analyzed the "King Wen" sequence of the I Ching, and discovered it was based on a lunar calender, from which they found they were able to 'map' history with. It ends, of course, on 2012, only later did they find out this was also the end date for the Mayan calender! For those who are interested, the connection between the I ching and the DNA is found in the book "DNA and the I Ching" by Johnson F.Yan. Another good book connecting all the above together is "The Mayan Factor" by Jos'e Arguelles. So there is lots of info out there for those interested. Actually the fact that all these calenders often begin and end at the same time isn't all that mysterious, because they're based on natural cycles and rythyms such as days, years, solstices etc. even sunspot cycles, so it'd be surprising if they weren't coinciding.

Lots of bullshit.

What isn't ''bullshit'' to you?

 

[TIN_MAN]

Well, the quantum leap in evolution thing was just my two Quatloos worth, so that might very well be BS, but there is a method to my madness. Allyn Gibson is technically correct, officially, there is no such thing as an I Ching calender, but, I was refering to the research of Terrence & Dennis McKenna and their book "The Invisable Landscape" In which they analyzed the "King Wen" sequence of the I Ching, and discovered it was based on a lunar calender, from which they found they were able to 'map' history with. It ends, of course, on 2012, only later did they find out this was also the end date for the Mayan calender! For those who are interested, the connection between the I ching and the DNA is found in the book "DNA and the I Ching" by Johnson F.Yan. Another good book connecting all the above together is "The Mayan Factor" by Jos'e Arguelles. So there is lots of info out there for those interested. Actually the fact that all these calenders often begin and end at the same time isn't all that mysterious, because they're based on natural cycles and rythyms such as days, years, solstices etc. even sunspot cycles, so it'd be surprising if they weren't coinciding.

Lots of bullshit.

Right back at you!

 

[FalTorPan]

Behold: I, Ching

 

[hyzmarca]

2012 is the year that that magic returns to the world and the dragons awaken from their slumber. One of them will level Tehran, one will conquer Denver, one will become CEO of a German corporation, and one will get his own late night talk show in which he pontificates about popcorn brands that can be cooked over an open flame.

And the Native Americans will rise up to take their land back.

 

[miraclefan]

2012 is the year that that magic returns to the world and the dragons awaken from their slumber. One of them will level Tehran, one will conquer Denver, one will become CEO of a German corporation, and one will get his own late night talk show in which he pontificates about popcorn brands that can be cooked over an open flame.

And the Native Americans will rise up to take their land back.

I thought all the land in this country belonged to the MEXICANS? That's what they keep saying anyway.

 

[iguana_tonante]

What isn't ''bullshit'' to you?

I dunno, reality? science? chocolate?

Right back at you!

Hey, when you present mumbo-jumbo trying to pass it as science, I will call things with their names. Nothing personal.

 

[bigdaddy]

The really interesting thing is, there are genetic correspondences as well, suggesting that some kind of evelutionary "quantum leap" is going to occur?

Whaaaaat???

It was the dawn of the third age of mankind

Actually i read a book about it in B&N, I think it's the 6th or 7th age of mankind.

 

[Mistral]

Well, the quantum leap in evolution thing was just my two Quatloos worth, so that might very well be BS, but there is a method to my madness. Allyn Gibson is technically correct, officially, there is no such thing as an I Ching calender, but, I was refering to the research of Terrence & Dennis McKenna and their book "The Invisable Landscape" In which they analyzed the "King Wen" sequence of the I Ching, and discovered it was based on a lunar calender, from which they found they were able to 'map' history with. It ends, of course, on 2012, only later did they find out this was also the end date for the Mayan calender! For those who are interested, the connection between the I ching and the DNA is found in the book "DNA and the I Ching" by Johnson F.Yan. Another good book connecting all the above together is "The Mayan Factor" by Jos'e Arguelles. So there is lots of info out there for those interested. Actually the fact that all these calenders often begin and end at the same time isn't all that mysterious, because they're based on natural cycles and rythyms such as days, years, solstices etc. even sunspot cycles, so it'd be surprising if they weren't coinciding.

Lots of bullshit.

Right back at you!

No, no, ball's in your court. Current sunspot cycle scheduled to run through 2013, not 2012 so I don't see how that's relevant. How would knowing that a section of the I Ching is based on the lunar cycle allow a "mapping" of the future? If its so damn accurate why aren't serious scientists using it and publishing papers to let us know what is to come? Wouldn't that work out better for everyone? I'm sure people in New Orleans would have thought so a few years ago...

This smacks of something I've long maintained regarding another fringe element, the so-called psychics. I've always felt that if they were truly psychic they would call me, since I know I'm waiting and hoping for the call. Yet the phone remains silent. Your McKenna boys should be shouting to the NY Times about all the things that are going to happen in the future-yet the silence remains deafening. Go figure.

 

[John Picard]

Roland Emmerich's "2012" is due out in November 2009. The story is about a small group of survivors living in a post-apocalyptic world. What do you think about all the hype surrounding the year 2012? Is this another Y2K farce, or is there credible evidence of a possible disaster? Share your thoughts....

At least the Y2K thing has some "merit" to it. There *was* a problem in computers and it may very well have been a problem if we didn't work to fix it.

The 2012 thing? "Ummm. Some Myans a few thousand years ago made it a calendar. We think it ends in 2012. Doom will happen!"

Yeeeeeah.

The movie? Sure to be Roland Emmerich crap.

Actually, there was no merit in Y2K. It was all media hype. 2012 is nothing but conspiracy whacko hype.

 

[sojourner]

Lots of bullshit.

Right back at you!

No, no, ball's in your court. Current sunspot cycle scheduled to run through 2013, not 2012 so I don't see how that's relevant. How would knowing that a section of the I Ching is based on the lunar cycle allow a "mapping" of the future? If its so damn accurate why aren't serious scientists using it and publishing papers to let us know what is to come? Wouldn't that work out better for everyone? I'm sure people in New Orleans would have thought so a few years ago...

This smacks of something I've long maintained regarding another fringe element, the so-called psychics. I've always felt that if they were truly psychic they would call me, since I know I'm waiting and hoping for the call. Yet the phone remains silent. Your McKenna boys should be shouting to the NY Times about all the things that are going to happen in the future-yet the silence remains deafening. Go figure.

Yea, agree with you, mathematicians can find number patterns in everything. Especially if they are looking for said patterns. Now if the number 23 were involved I would be getting out my tinfoil hat..

Shadowrun used the 2012 date the best I think. In the game it was the date magic returned to the world.

 

[Silvercrest]

What do you think about all the hype surrounding the year 2012?

I think you were right to post the thread under "Science Fiction & Fantasy."

 

[TIN_MAN]

No, no, ball's in your court. Current sunspot cycle scheduled to run through 2013, not 2012 so I don't see how that's relevant. How would knowing that a section of the I Ching is based on the lunar cycle allow a "mapping" of the future? If its so damn accurate why aren't serious scientists using it and publishing papers to let us know what is to come? Wouldn't that work out better for everyone? I'm sure people in New Orleans would have thought so a few years ago...

This smacks of something I've long maintained regarding another fringe element, the so-called psychics. I've always felt that if they were truly psychic they would call me, since I know I'm waiting and hoping for the call. Yet the phone remains silent. Your McKenna boys should be shouting to the NY Times about all the things that are going to happen in the future-yet the silence remains deafening. Go figure.

Well, that's why I listed a few of my referance sources, so that those interested could look it up and fairly evaluate the evidence. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I try to familiarise myself with a subject before expressing an opinion on it. I dont mind arguing valid points with anyone who's informed enough to articulate them, but some people would rather sit back and declare everything "bullshit" without doing the proper research for a substantive rebuttal, therefore I consider such blanket dismissals to be bullshit of the highest order, and it's a waste of time arguing with closed minds!
This is not the place for a lengthy discussion on all relevant facts, perhaps another thread in the science and tech forum would be better, if anyone feels so inclined to start one, however a few things here. Mistral, you seem like someone who knows what their talking about so; about 2012 vs.2013? Yes, that's a minor problem, actually many researchers into this mess have favored 2013, and some have actually favored 2011, this has to do, partly at least, with trying to compare other calenders with our "western/Christian" one, and the fact that there is no '0' year, that is, we basically go from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D., and "lose" a year, this was the same reason there were some confusion as to whether 2000 was the millenium, as apposed to 1999 or 2001? As you suggest, the Sunspot cycle would seem to favor 2013 as the close of the cycle. Actually we are really dealing with many overlapping celestial and bio-rhythm cycles here, some of longer duration and some shorter, and they do not, in fact, line up exactly. All in all, it'll take about a century for all these cycles to run their courses, 2012/2013 is just the thick of it, as it were. As for how the I ching as a luner calender can map history, well, I suggest you read the McKennas' book, but I will say here that I was not suggesting that every detail of history was revealed, just that the "wave analysis" that the authors extracted seemed to "eb and flow" with events in known history, which allowed them to find the best "fit". And since this "time wave" was finite, The McKennas were able to see that it ended at a point corrosponding to December 31st, 2012!
I could go on, but I'm tired and your bored, so I'll just say this in closing.
The Mckennas (one of whom has passed away) are not slouches, they are scientist, who have published papers and books on this subject for anyone willing to read them, but sadly, it seems most people (and scientists are people to) are like our friend Iquana here, who would rather decide its all bullshit before even looking into the merits of their case?

 

[John Picard]

No, no, ball's in your court. Current sunspot cycle scheduled to run through 2013, not 2012 so I don't see how that's relevant. How would knowing that a section of the I Ching is based on the lunar cycle allow a "mapping" of the future? If its so damn accurate why aren't serious scientists using it and publishing papers to let us know what is to come? Wouldn't that work out better for everyone? I'm sure people in New Orleans would have thought so a few years ago...

This smacks of something I've long maintained regarding another fringe element, the so-called psychics. I've always felt that if they were truly psychic they would call me, since I know I'm waiting and hoping for the call. Yet the phone remains silent. Your McKenna boys should be shouting to the NY Times about all the things that are going to happen in the future-yet the silence remains deafening. Go figure.

Well, that's why I listed a few of my referance sources, so that those interested could look it up and fairly evaluate the evidence. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I try to familiarise myself with a subject before expressing an opinion on it. I dont mind arguing valid points with anyone who's informed enough to articulate them, but some people would rather sit back and declare everything "bullshit" without doing the proper research for a substantive rebuttal, therefore I consider such blanket dismissals to be bullshit of the highest order, and it's a waste of time arguing with closed minds!
This is not the place for a lengthy discussion on all relevant facts, perhaps another thread in the science and tech forum would be better, if anyone feels so inclined to start one, however a few things here. Mistral, you seem like someone who knows what their talking about so; about 2012 vs.2013? Yes, that's a minor problem, actually many researchers into this mess have favored 2013, and some have actually favored 2011, this has to do, partly at least, with trying to compare other calenders with our "western/Christian" one, and the fact that there is no '0' year, that is, we basically go from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D., and "lose" a year, this was the same reason there were some confusion as to whether 2000 was the millenium, as apposed to 1999 or 2001? As you suggest, the Sunspot cycle would seem to favor 2013 as the close of the cycle. Actually we are really dealing with many overlapping celestial and bio-rhythm cycles here, some of longer duration and some shorter, and they do not, in fact, line up exactly. All in all, it'll take about a century for all these cycles to run their courses, 2012/2013 is just the thick of it, as it were. As for how the I ching as a luner calender can map history, well, I suggest you read the McKenna's book, but I will say here that I was not suggesting that every detail of history was revealed, just that the "wave analysis" that the authors extracted seemed to "eb and flow" with events in known history, which allowed them to find the best "fit". And since this "time wave" was finite, The McKenna's were able to see that it ended at a point corrosponding to December 31st, 2012!
I could go on, but I'm tired and your bored, so I'll just say this in closing.
The Mckenna's (one of whom has passed away) are not slouches, they are scientist, who have published papers and books on this subject for anyone willing to read them, but sadly, it seems most people (and scientists are people to) are like our friend Iquana here, who would rather decide its all bullshit before even looking into the merits of their case?

I second what Iguana says. BULLSHIT.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I could go on, but I'm tired and your bored, so I'll just say this in closing.
The Mckenna's (one of whom has passed away) are not slouches, they are scientist, who have published papers and books on this subject for anyone willing to read them, but sadly, it seems most people (and scientists are people to) are like our friend Iquana here, who would rather decide its all bullshit before even looking into the merits of their case?

I'm sure you a nice bloke, TIN_MAN. I applaud your enthusiasms and your open mind. But it's still bullshit. As a scientist, I have little patience for that.

People have made predictions of the end of the world since, well, since the beginning of the world, and they never came to fruition. You really think this time it would be the good one?

Keep your mind open for actual science, not pseudosciences. Your friend McKenna was a heavy user of psychedelic drugs and a self-styled expert on shamanism. I'm sure his books make some compelling reads, and I'm sure I would have enjoyed a chat with him, sharing a joint. But he was no scientist, and trying to pass his philosophies s science is a disservice to both science and philosophy.

Real science must be predictive. Are you ready to bet that in 2012 something significant for the human race would happen? A real, actual event? Because people tried to do that in the past, and they were invariably wrong.

 

[Mistral]

I could go on, but I'm tired and your bored, so I'll just say this in closing.
The Mckenna's (one of whom has passed away) are not slouches, they are scientist, who have published papers and books on this subject for anyone willing to read them, but sadly, it seems most people (and scientists are people to) are like our friend Iquana here, who would rather decide its all bullshit before even looking into the merits of their case?

I'm sure you a nice bloke, TIN_MAN. I applaud your enthusiasms and your open mind. But it's still bullshit. As a scientist, I have little patience for that.

People have made predictions of the end of the world since, well, since the beginning of the world, and they never came to fruition. You really think this time it would be the good one?

Keep your mind open for actual science, not pseudosciences. Your friend McKenna was a heavy user of psychedelic drugs and a self-styled expert on shamanism. I'm sure his books make some compelling reads, and I'm sure I would have enjoyed a chat with him, sharing a joint. But he was no scientist, and trying to pass his philosophies s science is a disservice to both science and philosophy.

Real science must be predictive. Are you ready to bet that in 2012 something significant for the human race would happen? A real, actual event? Because people tried to do that in the past, and they were invariably wrong.

Actually, I predict something significant will happen in 2012. Significant things happen all of the time. To point a mystic finger at a certain point in time and say, "Here and now, something will happen, something wonderful/awful, something momentous." Its very easy to do-but what empirical evidence points to the truth of the statement? There in lies the rub. Where's the proof? Not some crystal-healing, bellybutton contemplating fakir's opinion but good, hard, testable proof? That's all I ever asked for, for as long as I can remember. God still hasn't returned my calls, though.

 

[John Picard]

I could go on, but I'm tired and your bored, so I'll just say this in closing.
The Mckenna's (one of whom has passed away) are not slouches, they are scientist, who have published papers and books on this subject for anyone willing to read them, but sadly, it seems most people (and scientists are people to) are like our friend Iquana here, who would rather decide its all bullshit before even looking into the merits of their case?

I'm sure you a nice bloke, TIN_MAN. I applaud your enthusiasms and your open mind. But it's still bullshit. As a scientist, I have little patience for that.

People have made predictions of the end of the world since, well, since the beginning of the world, and they never came to fruition. You really think this time it would be the good one?

Keep your mind open for actual science, not pseudosciences. Your friend McKenna was a heavy user of psychedelic drugs and a self-styled expert on shamanism. I'm sure his books make some compelling reads, and I'm sure I would have enjoyed a chat with him, sharing a joint. But he was no scientist, and trying to pass his philosophies s science is a disservice to both science and philosophy.

Real science must be predictive. Are you ready to bet that in 2012 something significant for the human race would happen? A real, actual event? Because people tried to do that in the past, and they were invariably wrong.

Actually, I predict something significant will happen in 2012.

You are correct. President Obama will either be re-elected or defeated. Either way, it will be significant.

 

[CaptainStoner]

What isn't ''bullshit'' to you?

I dunno, reality? science? chocolate?

Right back at you!

Hey, when you present mumbo-jumbo trying to pass it as science, I will call things with their names. Nothing personal.

Very well then, scientist. Let's see you come up with an astronomical calender superior to the Mayans. That's with no computers, no modern tech of any kind. Let's see you observe and predict 18000+ year sunspot cycles, predict an alignment with the Earth and the center of the galaxy by tens of thousands of years...
Yes, the end-of-the-world hype is hype. Nothing in the Mayan calender says that. It's moving into the 14th of 20 cycles. But surely a scientist can respect the astounding achievements of these early civilizations.
The end of the human world is always around the corner. That's how tenuous things are. All it takes is a big rock, or sufficient warming or cooling. Even the whole solar system could easily be sucked up by a black hole, with little way of seeing it coming.
Is that bullshit also?
Oh, but consciousness, that's all bullshit, right? All the piles and piles of evidence in the medical field of precognition - bullshit. Millions and millions of premonitions - bullshit, right? Are scientists supposed to ignore evidence? What then of the biofeedback evidence for precognition? Why in the world does the body react before a computer randomly displays a negative image?
As if current science knows everything there is to know. Now that's bullshit.

 

[iguana_tonante]

What isn't ''bullshit'' to you?

I dunno, reality? science? chocolate?

Right back at you!

Hey, when you present mumbo-jumbo trying to pass it as science, I will call things with their names. Nothing personal.

Very well then, scientist. Let's see you come up with an astronomical calender superior to the Mayans. That's with no computers, no modern tech of any kind. Let's see you observe and predict 18000+ year sunspot cycles, predict an alignment with the Earth and the center of the galaxy by tens of thousands of years...
Yes, the end-of-the-world hype is hype. Nothing in the Mayan calender says that. It's moving into the 14th of 20 cycles. But surely a scientist can respect the astounding achievements of these early civilizations.
The end of the human world is always around the corner. That's how tenuous things are. All it takes is a big rock, or sufficient warming or cooling. Even the whole solar system could easily be sucked up by a black hole, with little way of seeing it coming.
Is that bullshit also?
Oh, but consciousness, that's all bullshit, right? All the piles and piles of evidence in the medical field of precognition - bullshit. Millions and millions of premonitions - bullshit, right? Are scientists supposed to ignore evidence? What then of the biofeedback evidence for precognition? Why in the world does the body react before a computer randomly displays a negative image?
As if current science knows everything there is to know. Now that's bullshit.

Chill, dude. Never claimed that science knows everything. There is much more to know and discover. That's the cool thing about science. You are blowing the wrong trumpet.

No one is denying that the Mayans achieved great accuracy with their calendar. That's a true testament to their technical and mathematical skill. The only ones disrespecting it are people making quick money out of them writing books full of bullshit: end of the world, astral conjunction, mystical events. Are you defending them?

On black holes, climate changes, extinction events and such, I'm not even sure what is your point. Are they real? Of course. Are they are somehow connected to an ancient Mayan calendar? I really doubt it.

On precognition: it's not my field, but I call bullshit. Millions and millions of premonitions? Where are them? I've never saw a single compelling evidence for the paranormal. I can be wrong, of course. But as this moment, I never saw anything that made me change my mind.

As I said, you are blowing the wrong trumpet with me. I'm not an enemy of people searching for knowledge. I'm an enemy for people trying to sell me smoke and mirrors.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I could go on, but I'm tired and your bored, so I'll just say this in closing.
The Mckenna's (one of whom has passed away) are not slouches, they are scientist, who have published papers and books on this subject for anyone willing to read them, but sadly, it seems most people (and scientists are people to) are like our friend Iquana here, who would rather decide its all bullshit before even looking into the merits of their case?

I'm sure you a nice bloke, TIN_MAN. I applaud your enthusiasms and your open mind. But it's still bullshit. As a scientist, I have little patience for that.

People have made predictions of the end of the world since, well, since the beginning of the world, and they never came to fruition. You really think this time it would be the good one?

Keep your mind open for actual science, not pseudosciences. Your friend McKenna was a heavy user of psychedelic drugs and a self-styled expert on shamanism. I'm sure his books make some compelling reads, and I'm sure I would have enjoyed a chat with him, sharing a joint. But he was no scientist, and trying to pass his philosophies s science is a disservice to both science and philosophy.

Real science must be predictive. Are you ready to bet that in 2012 something significant for the human race would happen? A real, actual event? Because people tried to do that in the past, and they were invariably wrong.

Taking your last part first, I already said my statement about a "quantum leap in evolution" is just a guess, but it's an educated guess nontheless. What I never said, however, was that something significant would happen in 2012, in fact, I said just the opposite. I'll make this prediction, though, the winter solstice Sun will appear to align with the galactic center, as seen from the Earth, on December 31, 2012. Hows that for a scientific prediction. Just wait and see, it'll come true.
I do keep my mind open for pseudoscience, in fact I find it everywhere, it's rampant, I find it just as often in the hallowed halls of academia as I do in the fringes of the 'new age' groups. There's a differance between the scientific method and science as it's usually practiced, even by "professionals". Science is only as good as the people who practice it, and people are flawed, easily swayed by personal, political, socio/economic, and even military concerns. So unless we find a way to insulate science and scientists from these pressures, then the best we can hope for I'm afraid, is a flawed science.
As for McKenna. He's not my "friend" (I never met the man) but his drug use is openly discussed in his book "The Hidden Lanscape", but this in no way invalidates his discoveries. He may not have been a Professional scientist, but he was nontheless a very intellegent and erudite man. The relationship he and his brother found in the I Ching and its relation to a calender is by no means unscientific, nor is the fact that it predicts the end of a major cycle (related to the precession of the equinoxes apparently?). As I said in my post above, we would expect any really good, acurate calander to do this.
In closing, I'll just say that that, while I agree that people have been predicting the end of the world since there have been people on the planet, I disagree that they've always been wrong, we know there have been many catastrophes that have wiped out most life on earth, even within human existance, so I'm sure somebody got it right even if just by accident?