20 producers in Discovery opening credits, seriously?

[Rahul]

I don't have a problem with the fact that all these people have producer in their job title, I just think it's stupid they are all in the opening credits. I just watched the Game of Thrones credits, they also list a bunch of producers, about 13, but I've never noticed in 7 seasons. For some reason the Discovery titles just make it stick out annoyingly to me, hence my complaint about the aesthetics.

Game of Thrones also has a shit-ton more recurring and regular characters and actors than Discovery, so the names in the opening credits fly by much faster. Also, this show is produced all over the world, they film in Ireland, Malta, Iceland and others all at the same time - so it's obvious there need to be more producers to be on locations.

DIS on the other hand mostly films everything at the same place, in Vancouver (with the one exception of location-shooting in Jordan). I think, without any form of condemning it, that this really, simply IS the result of the early production troubles, where some writers, who normally would be just "regular" writers, were far more influential in shaping the product to it's final form than they usually would be. Add to that the booted executives, the "honorable mentions" (Meyer, Rodenberry), the ones owning the rights and production companies, and you got yourself a whole lot producer credits.

 

[Christopher]

I don't have a problem with the fact that all these people have producer in their job title, I just think it's stupid they are all in the opening credits.

Most shows put them at the start of Act 1, along with guest cast, writer, and director. Many network shows don't have main titles at all (or just a brief card) and put the regular cast credits at the start of Act 1 too. This is just taking that in the other direction, putting all the "above the line" credits (i.e. people who get royalties) in the main titles. It's contractually obligated to credit them somewhere at the start; the pay cable/streaming TV convention these days is to put them all in the title sequence.

I just watched the Game of Thrones credits, they also list a bunch of producers, about 13, but I've never noticed in 7 seasons. For some reason the Discovery titles just make it stick out annoyingly to me, hence my complaint about the aesthetics.

Maybe because the text is so big there, or because you're not used to seeing it in a Star Trek show.

DIS on the other hand mostly films everything at the same place, in Vancouver (with the one exception of location-shooting in Jordan).

Toronto, not Vancouver. Specifically at Pinewood Toronto Studios, the largest production facility in Canada.

I think, without any form of condemning it, that this really, simply IS the result of the early production troubles, where some writers, who normally would be just "regular" writers, were far more influential in shaping the product to it's final form than they usually would be.

As I told you in the other thread, it's erroneous to think that "regular" writers are not producers. Most writing staffers these days are producers of various ranks. Indeed, the modern writing room system is designed to cultivate writers into producers and eventual showrunners. You start out as an intern, then get to be a staff writer, and as you gain experience you're promoted to story editor, then co-producer, producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer, executive producer, and finally showrunner (which is technically an executive producer). All of these are different ranks on the writing staff, and the writer-producers of various ranks all work together as a single unit.

For instance, on the final season of DS9, the writing staff consisted of executive producer Ira Steven Behr, co-executive producers Hans Beimler and Ronald D. Moore, supervising producer Rene Echevarria, and executive story editors Bradley Thompson & David Weddle. The difference in their titles was a matter of experience, seniority, and level of responsibility, but that's just bureaucracy -- fundamentally, those six were the writers of the show. They sat together in a room 6 days a week and plotted out the whole season as a group, then took assignments for specific scripts or were allocated those assignments by the showrunner, then they would all participate in revisions and rewrites, and the showrunner would do the final draft, regardless of who the credited writer was. And that's basically the way it works on every US television series, except something like Babylon 5 where J. Michael Straczynski wrote the last three seasons all by himself.

 

[The Lensman]

I did a couple spot checks and it doesn't seem like there are more than a couple producer credits in the end credits of all the old series..

HAHAHAHA no. TNG usually had six or seven producers names popping up at the beginning of the first act, right after the show theme. JMS actually snarkily commented on this fact in early interviews either right before Babylon 5 came out, or in season 1. And once he mentioned that, I could never not see it again. The current Flash show also has a shit ton of producers, even more than the 24th century Trek shows.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think my friend Guido down the street from me is a producer.
Also Mrs. Baker who lives up the street.
And that guy everyone calls "Pookie."

 

[Rahul]

Toronto, not Vancouver. Specifically at Pinewood Toronto Studios, the largest production facility in Canada.

Right!

As I told you in the other thread, it's erroneous to think that "regular" writers are not producers. Most writing staffers these days are producers of various ranks. Indeed, the modern writing room system is designed to cultivate writers into producers and eventual showrunners. You start out as an intern, then get to be a staff writer, and as you gain experience you're promoted to story editor, then co-producer, producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer, executive producer, and finally showrunner (which is technically an executive producer). All of these are different ranks on the writing staff, and the writer-producers of various ranks all work together as a single unit.

For instance, on the final season of DS9, the writing staff consisted of executive producer Ira Steven Behr, co-executive producers Hans Beimler and Ronald D. Moore, supervising producer Rene Echevarria, and executive story editors Bradley Thompson & David Weddle. The difference in their titles was a matter of experience, seniority, and level of responsibility, but that's just bureaucracy -- fundamentally, those six were the writers of the show. They sat together in a room 6 days a week and plotted out the whole season as a group, then took assignments for specific scripts or were allocated those assignments by the showrunner, then they would all participate in revisions and rewrites, and the showrunner would do the final draft, regardless of who the credited writer was. And that's basically the way it works on every US television series, except something like Babylon 5 where J. Michael Straczynski wrote the last three seasons all by himself.

However, I have a hard time imagening 21 people sitting in the writer's room on a weekly basis debating in which direction to take the show. I get it - the core writing team can also bear the "producers" title. Together with the honorary ones and the guys that oversee the day-to-day production I can see that add up, but I really have a hard time to see 21 producers as anything but "many-cooks-in-the-kitchen". Especially for to a show this young, and with this level of already known early production trouble.

This ain't Game of Thrones, with it's dozen-and-dozens characters, plotlines, large amount of backstory it's directly adapting and multiple filming location's at the same time. This is a pretty linear storyline contained to a few characters.

 

[BigDaveX]

However, I have a hard time imagening 21 people sitting in the writer's room on a weekly basis debating in which direction to take the show. I get it - the core writing team can also bear the "producers" title. Together with the honorary ones and the guys that oversee the day-to-day production I can see that add up, but I really have a hard time to see 21 producers as anything but "many-cooks-in-the-kitchen". Especially for to a show this young, and with this level of already known early production trouble.

But having so many producers credited on a TV series really isn't anything out of the ordinary these days. All of the Marvel-related shows on Netflix have about as many producers credited as Discovery does, and just to take two shows chosen completely at random, the most recent season premieres of Grey's Anatomy and The Big Bang Theory have 18 and 17 producers credited respectively. However many producers work on a show proves nothing with regards to quality.

 

[Rahul]

But having so many producers credited on a TV series really isn't anything out of the ordinary these days. All of the Marvel-related shows on Netflix have about as many producers credited as Discovery does, and just to take two shows chosen completely at random, the most recent season premieres of Grey's Anatomy and The Big Bang Theory have 18 and 17 producers credited respectively. However many producers work on a show proves nothing with regards to quality.

The longer a series goes, the more producers accumulate over time - people come and go. What is unusual is this large amount of producers at the same time.

Marvel Netflix on the other hand is a multi-corporation co-production of an existing source material - they have to credit everyone, from the rights-holders to the guys whose storylines adapt to of course freakin' Stan Lee. That doesn't mean eac of them is present during the day-to-day business. If you discount every "honorable mention" you'd land at a very regular number of producers. If you did that with DIS, you'd notice a whole lot of them were actually involved directly in the creation process. The many cooks.

Again: This itself is not a criticism or anything. It just means a whole lot of people went in and out of doors with their opinions during the creation of DIS, more than is at least usual. The result, that some parts of DIS feel somewhat disjointed, is a personal opinion. But I sure as hell think their work paid off in the end - and that the creators were able to solve the mess in time and dlivered an enjoyable product.

 

[Christopher]

However, I have a hard time imagening 21 people sitting in the writer's room on a weekly basis debating in which direction to take the show.

Wow, you are really not paying attention. I've said in multiple previous posts that there are several different types of producers. Some are writers. Some are in charge of execution, the physical and logistical process of actually making the show. Some are just financial or business partners.

I went through the list of Discovery producers in post #16 of this thread. The ones who I think are probably making up the core writing staff at the moment are Berg, Harberts, Goldsman, Alexander, Coleite, Randolph, Sullivan, and several staff writers including Kirsten Beyer. The rest of those "21 people" are either non-writing producers, consultants, or former staffers who have already moved on. Seven writer-producers and 3-5 staff writers is a fairly large staff, yes, but not a gigantic one.

I get it - the core writing team can also bear the "producers" title.

Not "can" -- almost invariably does. Any writing staff member with any significant degree of seniority and authority is a producer. Writers in Hollywood have ranks, just as officers in Starfleet have ranks. If you've been working steadily as a regular, in-house writer on one or more television series staffs for more than, say, two years, and have done your job competently enough to earn promotions on a normal schedule, then you'll be credited as some level of producer.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Please don't treat IMDB as reliable or authoritative.

IMDb had Harry Mudd there for all fifteen episodes as well.

Information there before things air is completely unreliable.

Really have to take these things in a bit of context.

Very early on, IMDB listed Yeoh and Mudd for 15 episodes but that was for a brief period of "foooool youuuuu" and now that the cat is out of the bag this is coming down to being more accurate.

It's not very likely IMDB is wrong on who is there for one or two episodes.

 

[Rahul]

Wow, you are really not paying attention. I've said in multiple previous posts that there are several different types of producers. Some are writers. Some are in charge of execution, the physical and logistical process of actually making the show. Some are just financial or business partners.

I went through the list of Discovery producers in post #16 of this thread. The ones who I think are probably making up the core writing staff at the moment are Berg, Harberts, Goldsman, Alexander, Coleite, Randolph, Sullivan, and several staff writers including Kirsten Beyer. The rest of those "21 people" are either non-writing producers, consultants, or former staffers who have already moved on. Seven writer-producers and 3-5 staff writers is a fairly large staff, yes, but not a gigantic one.

Yeah, I read your post, thank you very much.
That still doesn't change the fact that there way too fucking many people with a "producer" rank and an actual involvement in the creative process running around. Of course everyone of them is entitled to be mentioned in the credits - they did their job after all. Every cook that served in the kitchen needs to be mentioned. Doesn't change the fact that something went horribly wrong when the entire kitchen is crammed with cooks.

Not "can" -- almost invariably does. Any writing staff member with any significant degree of seniority and authority is a producer. Writers in Hollywood have ranks, just as officers in Starfleet have ranks. If you've been working steadily as a regular, in-house writer on one or more television series staffs for more than, say, two years, and have done your job competently enough to earn promotions on a normal schedule, then you'll be credited as some level of producer.

So you think it's normal to stuff your ship with three different Captains and 5-6 different CO's on their very first mission, or what?

 

[Noname Given]

Welcome to modern day Hollywood. Hell even 20+ years ago, by TNG Season 7 - Credits ran 10 minutes into the start of an episode with practically everyone and his mother having a 'Producer' or a writing credit.

 

[BigDaveX]

So you think it's normal to stuff your ship with three different Captains and 5-6 different CO's on their very first mission, or what?

Hey, if it was good enough for the Enterprise-A...

 

[EnderAKH]

So you think it's normal to stuff your ship with three different Captains and 5-6 different CO's on their very first mission, or what?

I would advise you start listening to The Nerdist Writers Panel and Scriptnotes, both of which have numerous TV and movie writers as guests. You would find that this number of producers is not unusual AT ALL. You may think it is too many cooks, bit it is how modern television is made. Craig Mazin always refers to each production as it's own small corporation, and the producers as the management team.

 

[Rahul]

I would advise you start listening to The Nerdist Writers Panel and Scriptnotes, both of which have numerous TV and movie writers as guests. You would find that this number of producers is not unusual AT ALL. You may think it is too many cooks, bit it is how modern television is made. Craig Mazin always refers to each production as it's own small corporation, and the producers as the management team.

Again: Yes, there are other shows with so many producers. But they usually have reasons for that: Notably, producers accumulate over time, so a long running show can have quite a number of them. And a show like GoT that films in many different locations in different countries at the same time needs more people overseeing the process as well.

None of these reasons apply to DIS, though.
But guess what other types of shows also have such a high amount of producers? Shows with a troubled production. You know what DIS definitely had? A troubled early production. With the showrunner leaving mid-process, and the whole thing being delayed several times for almost a year.

Sometimes, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck... it just might be a duck.

I think they are back on track now, delivering on schedule, so the point becomes moot anyway. But arguing the early troubles didn't have some side effects is still somewhat foolish.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Welcome to modern day Hollywood. Hell even 20+ years ago, by TNG Season 7 - Credits ran 10 minutes into the start of an episode with practically everyone and his mother having a 'Producer' or a writing credit.

Mom wrote the best episodes.

 

[Worf2DS9]

The number of producers crammed into the opening title sequence is pretty ridiculous, but I just really want the episode titles to appear on screen at the start of Act 1!

What episode/s did Joe Menosky work on?

He co-wrote tonight's episode, "Lethe."

 

[Greg Cox]

Worth remembering about DSC in general: Just because something isn't what we're used to doesn't mean it's "wrong."

As noted, credits are handled differently these days that they were on the older shows, that's all. STAR TREK does not exist in a bubble cut off from changing times and practices . .. although people sometimes seem to think that it ought to be.

 

[EnderAKH]

Some people want to see troubled production when there was merely a fairly normal development process. Maybe a little lengthier than normal due to trying to accommodate Fuller's schedule, but I personally would not file that under troubled.

 

[Rahul]

Some people want to see troubled production when there was merely a fairly normal development process. Maybe a little lengthier than normal due to trying to accommodate Fuller's schedule, but I personally would not file that under troubled.

It is a "troubled production" as soon as they miss their deadline by almost a year. That stuff has monetary costs, and believe me, no one is happy about that.

Would the quality of the show actually have been better if it weren't a troubled production? Nobody knows. It's equally possible that all the added time payed off big-time, and the finished product we see now is actually a lot better than the original Fuller draft. We really don't know. And besides that, "troubled production" really don't means "bad". TNG had a famously troubled production during it's first two(!) years! I think TNG turned out quite well, and I like even the first two seasons a lot.

 

[Prax]

Directors too. David Livingston and Winrich Kolbe held the position of "Co something something producer," and were listed among the opening credits on certain episodes in TNG, DS9, and Voyager(as in, episodes they had not directed-as they would then get the "directed by" credit instead). And there were other directors that were part of the full time creative process.

Co story editor, story editor, senior story editor, and executive story editor are some of the writer positions in the ranks between staff writer and producer.

I wonder if Disc. has an open door script policy like the other shows. I assume not due to the structure.