161 member seems far to little for UFP

[neozeks]

Yeah, I've always sort of wondered about the idea of "borders" consisting of billions upon billions of cubic miles of empty space (or, rather, space occupied by constantly moving small particles). It's like trying to assign state ownership to stretches of the mid-Atlantic, except more preposterous by many orders of magnitude.

The way I see it, a state's space consists of spheres centered on it's claimed star systems. Where those systems are numerous and close to each other the individual spheres may merge into larger blobs, where they are far apart, you have non-continuos territory. As the stars move, so do the borders. Sort of like groupings of small islands in the ocean, their territorial and archipelagic waters etc. So it's not analagous to land borders, it's really more like what we would have if the whole ocean was dotted with uncountable small relatively closely positioned islands.

 

[T'Girl]

 

[neozeks]

^Yeah, that's about it.

May I ask what that picture actually represents? I actually toyed with the idea of making a 3D Trek map like that once...

 

[T'Girl]

It a image of a molecule.

 

[the skullcowboy]

Does the UFP really need to pay respect to a flawed system in the first place?

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, the UFP is a government, and the UN isn't, so it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

 

[Sci]

I could possibly believe the amount of 161 as the amount of members- if it wasn't linked to UN as the reason.

Well, why not? The Federation is basically the UN in space.

Well, sort-of-but-not-really.

Clearly, the United Nations is a major influence on the concept of the Federation. But the key difference is that the Federation is, well, a federation: A non-unitary state that divides authorities between its central and provincial governments. We've seen the Federation exercise all the powers of a state: They have their own currency ("The Trouble With Tribbles"), their own borders, their own President, their own legislature, their own military, they can go to war, they can make law, they can declare martial law. The United Nations, by contrast, is not a government or state, but, rather, an intergovernmental organization that provides a platform for resolving disputes and launching joint ventures between states.

If we look at the evolution of the depiction of the Federation over time in Star Trek, I think it becomes very clear that while the U.N. is a major influence -- especially in its idealistic notion of vastly different cultures cooperating peaceably as equals -- that, ultimately, depictions of the Federation are more strongly influenced by the United States, with a dash of the United Kingdom's Westminster system added in for good measure.

Hey, I wonder what would happen if the EU became a unitary state. Given the nature of the UNSC's veto, I don't suppose it would matter if the EU had one veto or two.

If I understand international succession law correctly, that wouldn't happen. The European Union would simply take over the United Kingdom's and French Republic's seats as a single entity and receive only one veto.

personally, i think that it's 161 members not 161 planets.

the difference being, not every world, moon or asteroid colony may be independent individual members. for example, Earth may represent Earth, Luna, orbital colonies around same, Venusian bases and other stuff in the Sol system. Mars, however, is an independent world and has seperate membership. Likewise, in the case of Rigel, it's the Rigel Colonies, so there's four or five planets in one system as members. Andor could also represent Weytahn and Vulcan could represent P'Jem.

I always thought that myself. It seemed kind of silly that the Sol System would have 8+ members (then again, with Trek being as Earth-centric as it already is).

For whatever it's worth, the novels have established that while most of the Sol system seems to lie within the jurisdiction of United Earth (the federal state formed with the unification of Earth), Mars has actually formed its own independent state known as the Confederated Martian Colonies. So Earth and Mars are as separate from one-another within the Federation as New York and New Jersey (and, in the ENT-era novels, are as separate from one-another as France and Spain).

Yes but look at all the membersof the UN who are former European colonies, America, Canada, Brazil, Australia, others. From a certain way of looking at it, all members of the UN are former colonies of east Africa or somewhere.

That's a ridiculously broad definition of "colony." A "colony" is not any settlement composed of people descended from people from another area; a colony is by definition a community that lacks political autonomy of its own but which is instead politically subordinated to a distant state of which it is not itself a part. Some colonies, like the Thirteen Colonies, are mostly comprised of people from that distant state; others, such as, say, Kenya under the British empire, are mostly comprised of native inhabitants dominated and oppressed by the people from that distant state.

In other words, "colony" is a political classification, not a demographic classification.

Does the UFP really need to pay respect to a flawed system in the first place?

Of course it doesn't need to. But the writers choose to. The writers could have named it the Galactic Republic, after all, but instead they chose to name it the Federation and to allude to the U.N. from day one. That's because they don't have an anti-U.N. value system.

 

[Myasishchev]

If I understand international succession law correctly, that wouldn't happen. The European Union would simply take over the United Kingdom's and French Republic's seats as a single entity and receive only one veto.

I dunno, how long did Ukraine and Byelorussia have votes in the GA?

The practical effect wouldn't really matter, though. One veto, two vetos, five hundred vetos... it's a veto.

Anyway, I think you are probably right; Germany, for example, doesn't have two votes in the GA. William of Normandy shall be made aware.

 

[neozeks]

For whatever it's worth, the novels have established that while most of the Sol system seems to lie within the jurisdiction of United Earth (the federal state formed with the unification of Earth), Mars has actually formed its own independent state known as the Confederated Martian Colonies. So Earth and Mars are as separate from one-another within the Federation as New York and New Jersey (and, in the ENT-era novels, are as separate from one-another as France and Spain).

Hmm, here's an interesting question in regards to borders then. So Martian territory within the Federation presumably occupies Mars and the space immediately around it while UE territory certainly occupies Earth, Venus, Jupiter etc. and the spaces immediately around these worlds. What about the rest of space within the Solar System? Is it all UE space with Mars being an 'enclave'? Or is it some kind of federal space, neither UE's or CMC's? Maybe this second case explains why Starfleet is seemingly so involved in more local Sol system matters, it's a 'neutral' side (aside from the obvious reason of Earth being the Federation capital, of course).

 

[T'Girl]

Does the UFP really need to pay respect to a flawed system in the first place?

To be fair, during the time period of TOS (late 60's) when the image of Federation was likely drawn from the example of the United Nations, the problematical screw-up factory that the UN would become wasn't realized. the multiple coalitions and third world power blocs had only begun to form, and the informal split of the organization between the developed nations and the undeveloped nations was a quarter century in the future.

That's a ridiculously broad definition of "colony." A "colony" is not any settlement composed of people descended from people from another area; a colony is by definition a community that lacks political autonomy of its own but which is instead politically subordinated to a distant state of which it is not itself a part.

And Sci, your definition is confusingly narrow, Colonies are formed when a life forms move into a distant area where their kind is sparse or not yet existing at all and set up new settlements or new societies in the area. . An example of this would be when people moved from Siberia into the Americas during the last ice age, there was no political component.

This doesn't only apply to Humans, animals and especially insects move into new areas and also form colonies. My statement that Humans colonized the Earth from a relatively small area is a valid, as is my use use of the word "colony."

 

[Sci]

If I understand international succession law correctly, that wouldn't happen. The European Union would simply take over the United Kingdom's and French Republic's seats as a single entity and receive only one veto.

I dunno, how long did Ukraine and Byelorussia have votes in the GA?

As long as the Soviet Union was upset that it didn't have as many allies in the General Assembly as the United States.

I don't think that the Cold War, need-to-maintain-a-balance-of-power-between-two-hostile-blocs would apply to the European Union simply achieving statehood.

For whatever it's worth, the novels have established that while most of the Sol system seems to lie within the jurisdiction of United Earth (the federal state formed with the unification of Earth), Mars has actually formed its own independent state known as the Confederated Martian Colonies. So Earth and Mars are as separate from one-another within the Federation as New York and New Jersey (and, in the ENT-era novels, are as separate from one-another as France and Spain).

Hmm, here's an interesting question in regards to borders then. So Martian territory within the Federation presumably occupies Mars and the space immediately around it while UE territory certainly occupies Earth, Venus, Jupiter etc. and the spaces immediately around these worlds. What about the rest of space within the Solar System? Is it all UE space with Mars being an 'enclave'? Or is it some kind of federal space, neither UE's or CMC's?

Unestablished. Personally, I would presume that the rest of the solar system belongs to United Earth and that only Mars and its satellites are outside of United Earth's borders, but that's just me guessing.

That's a ridiculously broad definition of "colony." A "colony" is not any settlement composed of people descended from people from another area; a colony is by definition a community that lacks political autonomy of its own but which is instead politically subordinated to a distant state of which it is not itself a part.

And Sci, your definition is confusingly narrow, Colonies are formed when a life forms move into a distant area where their kind is sparse or not yet existing at all and set up new settlements or new societies in the area. .

In other contexts, sure, the term "colony" can be used. But we're talking specifically in the context of political organization, not in the broader contexts of settlement formation. In that context, it is wholly inaccurate to use the term "colony" if a newer settlement was never politically dominated by the originating settlement (as, for instance, when Humans migrated to North America from Siberia -- those new North American settlements were, so far as we can tell, not politically dominated by Siberia).

 

[USS Excelsior]

So I wonder if planets like Terra Nova and Archer 4 would be considered separate members or part of Earth colony worlds like Mars.

 

[neozeks]

So I wonder if planets like Terra Nova and Archer 4 would be considered separate members or part of Earth colony worlds like Mars.

I'd say it's different from case to case, depending on whether the population of a colony wanted and achieved independence from Earth (peacefully, I presume) and if the colony meets the membership criteria on it's own (maybe there's a minimum population requirement, etc).

 

[Lorna]

161 member worlds, but that does not count colonies of each member world. If each member world had 10 colony systems that's well over 16,100 planets.
Also, I was under the impression that pre-warp civilisations existed within Federations space.
Just look at the Baku in Insurrection. The Federation believed that they were pre-warp and yet that planet and the entire Briar patch was located within Federation space. So how many other pre-warp planets have been silently subjugated into Federation territory?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

When I was working on the fourth season TNG episode "First Contact" I called Richard Arnold to ask how many planets were in the Federation (this actually was part of his job).

He said "We don't know. That's deliberate. Gene says that it could be twelve or that it could be a million. It's whatever people imagine."

I think that was brilliant. Of course, the time came when it wasn't up to Roddenberry.

 

[Lorna]

When I was working on the fourth season TNG episode "First Contact" I called Richard Arnold to ask how many planets were in the Federation (this actually was part of his job).

He said "We don't know. That's deliberate. Gene says that it could be twelve or that it could be a million. It's whatever people imagine."

I think that was brilliant. Of course, the time came when it wasn't up to Roddenberry.

How many planets or how many member planets?

 

[neozeks]

So how many other pre-warp planets have been silently subjugated into Federation territory?

Oh, I wouldn't really call that subjugation, it's more of a involuntary benevolent protectorate. I'd say pre-warp civilizations inside Federation space are vastly better off than the ones outside. The Federation protects them from outsiders and doesn't interfere or exploit them. Ok, if we take the extreme interpretation of the Prime Directive, maybe interference is actually better in some cases... But still, it's much better than being at the mercy of Klingons, bands of interstellar thugs etc.

 

[Lorna]

So how many other pre-warp planets have been silently subjugated into Federation territory?

Oh, I wouldn't really call that subjugation, it's more of a involuntary benevolent protectorate. I'd say pre-warp civilizations inside Federation space are vastly better off than the ones outside. The Federation protects them from outsiders and doesn't interfere or exploit them. Ok, if we take the extreme interpretation of the Prime Directive, maybe interference is actually better in some cases... But still, it's much better than being at the mercy of Klingons, bands of interstellar thugs etc.

I think it is subjugation. Like Quark and Garak said in a DS9 episode, the Federation is insidious.
We saw in the film Insurrection that not only was the Baku planet within Federation space but at the beginning of the film they were celebrating a new planet that had just acquired warp technology becoming a Federation protectorate. The question I'd like to ask is, was that planet also within Federation space? or on the Federation border?

The Federation IMO seems to claim territory these pre-warp civilisations are located in and then when they acquire warp they offer protection and then eventually membership. These planets/civilisations probably feel obligated to join as well, especially after being given protection.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

When I was working on the fourth season TNG episode "First Contact" I called Richard Arnold to ask how many planets were in the Federation (this actually was part of his job).

He said "We don't know. That's deliberate. Gene says that it could be twelve or that it could be a million. It's whatever people imagine."

I think that was brilliant. Of course, the time came when it wasn't up to Roddenberry.

How many planets or how many member planets?

The answer would have been the same: no answer.

See, you guys are debating the fitness of the "official" number.

Until the producers supplied that, you could only argue with one another. Now you can "argue" with them. Bad move.

 

[neozeks]

Well, I still don't think it's subjugation. There's no coercion involved, the newly-warp civilizations become protectorates or members of their own will. Unless offering and providing help in mutual interest is coercion. I think it's not, as insidious as it may be.