None of them could do it.
Kirk was only KIRK because, Shatner. A fluke.
Star Trek sucks.
11:59
- Thread starter hux
- Start date
None of them could do it.
Kirk was only KIRK because, Shatner. A fluke.
Star Trek sucks.
Which completely contradicted what was established about her character. They either should have had her meet an age appropriate, charming rogue (think Okona) who was some kind of anti-capitalist rebel that turned her head or they should have had Shannon be a lot more conventional from the off (wouldn't have change the story regarding flawed perceptions of history)
Sums it up
To be fair, I appreciated Voyager exploring a story beyond its Trek comfort zone but if they were gonna get away with that, then it needed to be done brilliantly (and this just wasn't)
I disagree. Mulgrew is not a prude in her personal life (reading her memoir would dissuade you from that belief). I understand completely where she was coming from when she refused to have Janeway bed hopping with members of her crew.
There has always existed a double standard when it comes to women, particularly more so 20 years ago. As the first woman to head the franchise, Kate wanted Janeway to be taken seriously. Someone like Kirk fit the "free love" mores of the 60s. He was also male and could get away with sleeping around. A woman in power can't do that. Imagine a Hillary Clinton or Angela Merkel screwing around with some underling. They wouldn't be allowed to get away with it like so many men have in the past.
As for Shatner, I have worked in the business and his reputation precedes him. The few people I know who worked with him said that, not only was he a bad actor (that was self evident), but he was an arrogant jerk who would always try to upstage his colleagues. He was disliked by most of those who worked on ST with him and later on in other projects. I think that, as well as his acting, he has improved with time.
There has always existed a double standard when it comes to women, particularly more so 20 years ago. As the first woman to head the franchise, Kate wanted Janeway to be taken seriously. Someone like Kirk fit the "free love" mores of the 60s. He was also male and could get away with sleeping around. A woman in power can't do that. Imagine a Hillary Clinton or Angela Merkel screwing around with some underling. They wouldn't be allowed to get away with it like so many men have in the past.
Contrary to Berlusconi..... Berlusconi as Romulan with a whole bunch of mistresses......
Some people doubt that Queen Elizabeth I was that Virgin Queen everyone claimed.
As to Janeway, she had her romances. They were used sparingly. And Janeway enjoyed Chuckles' presence like Elizabeth I enjoyed Robert Dudley's
It isn't just what the "woman" can get away with, its the expectations of the man in the relationship with the Captain feels he can "get away" with once the intimacy begins.
Gillian Anderson's BBC2 series was considered "groundbreaking" in her treatment of sex, for fun/release with NO strings attached as it has been for years with the male protagonists, "Wham, bam, thank-you man."
But what I found interesting was the series shows the men involved with Detective Superintendent Gibson seem to want the strings attached, as long as they are the puppeteers holding the strings. In season 1, after a night of "free love" with a detective she'd just met briefly 2 hours before, Stella Gibson's one night stand starts sexting her, just what a professional doesn't want others to see if they look over her shoulder at work when she opens up the message.
In season 2, the young detective she courts has the gall to second guess the Detective Superintendent's motivations for dating him (that he reminded her of the serial killer) and later her plan for their prisoner after just one night and a morning together.
Mulgrew's decision to not allow Janeway to "bed hop" was right on several levels, first because everyone on board was a subordinate and technically off limits, and 2nd because it would change the dynamic between Captain & Paramour where he'd feel more entitled to her power and she'd be more isolated wondering if his agreeing or disputing has more to do with reality or sexual politics.
Janeway couldn't replace shipboard romances with alien encounters since way back in season 1 she gave us her philosophy on relationships.
GATH: Why are you so consumed with this desire to get home? I find it difficult to understand.
JANEWAY: Home is home. It's where we belong.
GATH: Couldn't you create a new home here, with us? Can you imagine a more delightful place to live, where you could pass your time extracting pleasure from every moment. I promise you, you and I have many such moments to explore.
(Gath kisses Janeway's hand.)
JANEWAY: Yes, but for how long? I've seen how quickly you get tired of your pleasures. All that interests you is what's new and unexplored. After a day or two it becomes commonplace.
GATH: Yes?
JANEWAY: We prefer permanence. The reward of relationships that endure and grow deeper with the passing of time.
Janeway can't date the crew.
She can't date an alien "just passing by".
When she tried to "date" a hologram ...
(Something B'Elanna programmed for herself in the beech scenario, something Tom and Harry programmed for themselves in Captain Proton (remember the slave girls in the Mines of Mercury"?), heck even something that the EMH programmed for Vorik and Tom programmed for Tuvok when the 7 year itch came calling.)
... she got in trouble when said hologram went into a drunken depression from her perceived kiss-off.
Its just easier that she goes into a prolonged celibacy, sublimating her sexuality into platonic love for her crew, her ship and her mission.
Just don't get in her way when she gets home!
Hated that line
Another reminder of how conventional and conservative the Trek future is. Indistinguishable from the late 20th century.
We? She feels confident enough about the relationship conventions of 24th century humans to speak for the entire human race?
Why not......"I prefer.......but my colleague, Lt. Grimes over there, loves casual fucking. He's a good egg"
Another reason I personally find this episode interesting is that Biosphere 2 was built just north of my hometown, Tucson AZ. I was living there when they built it, and since the missions ended they have welcomed public visitors for tours and actively promoted it. The University of Arizona maintains it now and has some unique and interesting research based there; we've visited a couple times on vacations there.
Also it occurrs to me that Shannon is not much like Kathryn Janeway; she doesn't have Janeway's confidence -- and she is fresh off a big rejection in her career. She's in a pretty pathetic place. Shannon might have found Henry Janeway's sincere interest and loving warmth a very welcome feature and addition in her life. It was literally a cold world she stepped out of into the warmth and wonders of his bookstore world. Perhaps she wasn't stupid at all to recognize that it felt good and had something in store for her.
Also it occurrs to me that Shannon is not much like Kathryn Janeway; she doesn't have Janeway's confidence -- and she is fresh off a big rejection in her career. She's in a pretty pathetic place. Shannon might have found Henry Janeway's sincere interest and loving warmth a very welcome feature and addition in her life. It was literally a cold world she stepped out of into the warmth and wonders of his bookstore world. Perhaps she wasn't stupid at all to recognize that it felt good and had something in store for her.
I see your point, but I think you are putting too much emphasis on one word.
Janeway was using the Royal "we", aka the Doctoral "we".
EMH: "How are we doing today, Lt. Grimes?"
Lt. Grimes: "How are WE doing? Well I'm doing pretty horrible, Doc. I can't speak for you."
During that conversation just before the line that you hate, Gath was actively pursuing Janeway (not the entire ship's complement) for a roll in the hay, but his previously charming ways have already started to erode as his true "humor" came to the fore.
Hence her comment...
"I've seen how quickly you get tired of your pleasures. All that interests you is what's new and unexplored (i.e. Janeway). After a day or two it becomes commonplace."
And since we know Janeway is hardly "commonplace", she certainly doesn't want to get involved with someone who will make her feel that way before the week is out. Especially after she learns he's only playing her and never planned to give her the technology to skip them 40,000 light years in the first place.
The part of that story I liked the most was B'Elanna's decision to come clean with Janeway.
TORRES: We didn't anticipate anti-neutrinos. The trajector could never be compatible with Federation technology.
SESKA: I'll start erasing the sensor logs. We can blame it on the phase discrepancy.
TORRES: No! We're not going to cover this up.
SESKA: Are you crazy? We don't have to take the blame for this!
TORRES: But we're going to. We disobeyed orders, gambling that it would pay off. It didn't. And now we just can't pretend that nothing happened.
SESKA: I don't understand. There's no need for this.
TORRES: I'm sorry if you don't get it, Seska, but it has something to do with, er, with being able to live with yourself.
*
I love this epiphany because it suggests the half Klingon is not simply developing her sense of Honor, she's developing her sense of place on this Starfleet vessel.
Q'pla !
Sorry but no, I don't think so.
She is clearly not talking about herself here anymore than she is when she says......"it was never about giving us pleasure. It's all been to gratify yourselves. We're nothing more than the latest novelty"
She is obviously clarifying the difference between what (we) humans and (they) Sikarians culturally value. It's simply another example of Trek writers assuming that future human culture will be identical to current human culture. They always play safe with this stuff. Understandable but still a little disappointing.