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100 AU from Earth

It doesn't look like Starbase One is orbiting Earth to me, only some Earth-like planet or planetoid.

Does anyone have a screengrab with some of Earth's continents highlighted? I'll concede it's Earth, if it's shown to be Earth or if the VFX people said they goofed and made it Earth, but I really can't make out Earth's continents. I see lakes and shorelines, but not the Great Lakes and Florida.
 
I heard 100 AU, then saw a planet and figured it must be Earth and they messed up and was wondering why the Klingons were on the station but nobody was bothered by Earth below. And this after the the contradictory "the war is lost" and "20% of our territory" lines... it's like someone did a REALLY half-assed rewrite:wtf::shrug:
Almost as if they realized they would've written themselves in a corner with a total destruction as they need the Federation to be back on its feet in 10 years by TOS. The differences between the war being lost and 20% of territory were not problematic for me because many wars have been decided by even less, but I know it already stretched it for many viewers. I'm still wondering, however, whether they retconned it from Earth Spacedock to Starbase 1 in the Kuiper Belt to lower the war's scope and they simply didn't have time to redo the VFX or it was the other way around and the error was on the VFX guys' part.
 
It doesn't look like Starbase One is orbiting Earth to me, only some Earth-like planet or planetoid.

Does anyone have a screengrab with some of Earth's continents highlighted? I'll concede it's Earth, if it's shown to be Earth or if the VFX people said they goofed and made it Earth, but I really can't make out Earth's continents. I see lakes and shorelines, but not the Great Lakes and Florida.

Yeah, I'm not at all convinced we're looking at Earth here.
https://imgur.com/a/tbc0p
https://imgur.com/a/5PBZv
https://imgur.com/a/ZjJ7S
 
This one was capped right after Disco warped off: https://imgur.com/a/ZjJ7S
Hmm, maybe it would be seen even better on an earlier one, but I can clearly see Québec and the St. Lawrence estuary to the lower right of the wreckage's main part. Lake Michigan can also be seen faintly below the cloud (easier if you start looking from Québec). They're all rotated by 90 degrees counterclockwise.

Edit: Now that I know what to look for, the same region can be seen on the other two as well.
 
Well, lots of SF shows and movies have used orbital shots of Earth, often flipped or rotated, to represent alien planets. So that doesn't prove anything.
 
13.3 light hours, just over three times farther out than Neptune... Aside from where the fuck did that blue planet come from, why didn't the Klingons just drop in on Earth while they were there? FFS... it's like a Terry Nation episode of Dr Who.
 
Indeed, there's so much cloud coverage there that this actually being Earth (studio universe) does not cause it to actually be Earth (Trek universe).

Still, if Starbase 1 is literally on the edge of the Sol system, it's odd the Klingons never attempt to attack Earth or Starfleet Command when they have a foothold in the system.

Why would we consider this a foothold? It's just graffiti. The Klingons have no ships there; they have no people there (except for those 274 which can be approximated as zero); they have no military potential there (if they did, they would have scanned the hero ship sooner, and would have blown her out of the sky).

The Klingons aim at putting House graffiti over as many places as they can. Which, according to our heroes, is the opposite of strategic success.

If Saru weren't such a coward, the hero ship alone could have retaken SB1. But it's a better idea for Starfleet to vector in some other, less valuable ship for that chore. And for all we know there are dozens at Earth, and five already underway for this very mission.

Also, if Starbase 1 gets built in Sol, why was Archer checking out Berengaria in Bound as a potential site for the first starbase? Massive distance difference there.

Folks at Archer's time would have vastly less experience and would face a vastly different strategic scenario than folks fifteen years after Archer's time.

I tend to think that SB numbers are relatively permanent, even though the structures aren't: "SB137" means "the place #137 where we will build and, if need be, rebuild a Starbase", even at those times when there's no base there. So IMHO somebody decided Archer's idea was a bad one. Or, rather, United Earth wouldn't need a Starbase next to Earth (there'd be plenty of resources there to start with) - but the Federation would (even if this merely meant renaming those existing resources).

Timo Saloniemi
 
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OK, now this is the scene I was looking for. At 12 seconds, paused right before the Discovery warps away. Looks clearly like Eastern North America rotated by 90 degrees. All right, I admit, it just bugs me way more than it should.
 
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It doesn't look like Starbase One is orbiting Earth to me, only some Earth-like planet or planetoid.

Does anyone have a screengrab with some of Earth's continents highlighted? I'll concede it's Earth, if it's shown to be Earth or if the VFX people said they goofed and made it Earth, but I really can't make out Earth's continents. I see lakes and shorelines, but not the Great Lakes and Florida.
There aren't any earthlike planets or dwarf planets at 100AU. Stretches belief too far to imagine the UFP terraformed some TNO that far out and gave it some kind of light source (they finally show something not-dark in Discovery and it's over 9 billion miles from the nearest sun.. odd) Its easier to assume they just had no clue was an AU was.
 
...So, in in-universe terms, who was clueless, and how exactly? :p

I mean, it must have been Stamets, right, as he said the words? But could he be taken to be meaning something sensible, and flubbing something minor there, instead of completely fumbling the very numbers themselves?

My suggestion: the heroes are 100 AU from Earth as Stamets speaks, and SB1 is the thing that is over one lightyear from their current position. :devil:

I mean, it would be logical for Stamets to try and bring the heroes from the MU straight back to Earth, rather than to any other spot in the regular universe. When he says he managed to get back to the exact place of their departure, he means the exact universe (out of the myriad he might have hit instead), not the exact spot where Lorca punched in his own coordinates. And that's where Cornwell finds them. Not in the wreckage cloud of the Mirror ship, which is what would be there if Stamets had really brought them back to the exact location of the original switcharoo. :vulcan:

Timo Saloniemi
 
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There aren't any earthlike planets or dwarf planets at 100AU.
In the same episode terraforming was performed by a single starship. It's not possible that this could be a product of... wait for it... terraforming?

Its easier to assume they just had no clue was an AU was.
Actually, it's even easier to assume that people on the Internet are wrong. Again, I want to see continent outlines superimposed on the VFX or read the VFX people admit to mistakenly intending it to be Earth.

As already pointed out upthread, there was additional dialog in the episode, not involving anything technical, that made it clear that SB1 was not actually at Earth.
 
There aren't any earthlike planets or dwarf planets at 100AU. Stretches belief too far to imagine the UFP terraformed some TNO that far out and gave it some kind of light source (they finally show something not-dark in Discovery and it's over 9 billion miles from the nearest sun.. odd) Its easier to assume they just had no clue was an AU was.
Could it be Eris, which is 97.65 AUs from Earth at it's aphelion? Wiki says it's white, has a methane atmosphere and ice on the surface. Or (225088) 2007 OR10 who's aphelion is 101.02 AU and has water ice and methane?
 
I just choose not to take the visuals literally. A lot of the visual effects in this show bear no relation to plausible reality -- like the time they showed an O star as orange instead of blue, or the time the cloaked sarcophagus ship was just sitting there in its last known location while the Discovery was jumping around trying to find it. So I rely on the dialogue rather than the visuals to tell us what's actually intended to be there.
 
The thing to understand about the word "canon" is that it's a noun, not an adjective. The canon, by definition, is the entire body of work from the original creators or owners... The canon is the aggregate of the various fictional works presented by the creators or owners of the property. Individual details within it are going to contradict each other from time to time, but the overall body of work pretends they represent a consistent whole.
Well, yes, it's a noun. The adjectival form is "canonical." Whichever form someone uses in a sentence, though, it carries more meaning than simply saying "what was on screen was on screen" (or "what was published was published"). It's the implications that make the term such a potent topic of discussion.

Those implications have everything to do with continuity. When CBS says what's been on screen is canonical Star Trek, the implication is that the works on screen can and do fit into a coherent fictional reality. (With, moreover, a subsidiary implication being that derivative works, like say tie-in novels, have more room for deviation, may not fit in as well, and are subject to being disregarded at any time.)

Of course that fictional reality won't be perfect. Even Doyle, who had the significant advantage of being just one author, couldn't make everything dovetail perfectly in 60 stories written across 50 years. It's an ideal condition that can only be approached asymptotically. Still, the intention is clear.

That's why it seemed to me that Nerys Myk's and Awesome Possum's comments were beside the point — saying "it's canon" added nothing helpful to Fateor's comments about whether this latest puzzle piece (i.e., a successful Klingon attack within the solar system) actually fits into an available space in the larger jigsaw puzzle of canon. That's what prompted my tangent about the use of the term. By way of contrast, other posters like Timo and The Usual Suspect have offered genuinely imaginative (albeit of necessity speculative) possibilities for why and how it could fit.

It's a matter of two different frames of mind. Consider the ur-source of the term "canon," the Bible. It's chock full of contradictions, of course. Trying to tease out those contradictions and figure out (as a theologian) how they might actually make sense together, or (as a textual analyst) how they got that way, is far more interesting than approaching the book as a fundamentalist and insisting that every word in it has to be taken at face value. In Trek terms, saying "it's canon" carries an implication of "get over it," and operates to dismiss further conversation rather than engage in it. I don't understand why people do that.

Looked at granularly, every individual Trek series has major continuity errors and internal contradictions, and there are major inconsistencies among the different series. But we gloss over the discrepancies as best we can, and we usually go with whatever the latest version of the continuity is...
Well, I'd quibble a bit here — I'd say that what prevails when discrepancies arise isn't always or necessarily the most recent version, it's the more dominant version, the one with the preponderance of evidence on its side. (Hence all the consternation about the "reimagined" Klingons in DSC, for instance, who are more recent but are outweighed by far far far more depictions of significantly different Klingons.)

I'd also say that we (at least most of us) try to reconcile and explain discrepancies before we just gloss them over; that's a last resort. But you know this, of course; you've done ingenious work yourself along these lines, as for instance with your explanations in the DTI books of how Trek's various depictions of time travel can actually fit together into a single coherent understanding of how time works in the Trekverse, a synthesizing effort which certainly required research above and beyond the call.

I've long since given up on Starbase numberings making any kind of sense. Really, any kind of numbers in Trek -- stardates, distances, registry numbers, you name it. The various creators over the decades have coined these numbers based on different assumptions and without any expectation that they'd be parsed to death as thoroughly as Trekkies have done, so you can either drive yourself crazy trying to make sense of all the contradictions or you can just shrug it off and not sweat the details.
Okay, on this I agree with you. If there's one aspect of Trek where I really have no problem just glossing over the details, it's with these kinds of numbers. They're arbitrary to me, and I lose no sleep over them. However, I don't begrudge those people who toil at trying to find a way to make them work logically.

I've come to realize that Gene Roddenberry himself was fond of the "Doylist" view of canon as opposed to the "Watsonian" view -- that is, he saw Star Trek as a dramatization rather than the real thing, and thus its inconsistencies and logic holes were the result of errors in the dramatic presentation.
...
I find it easier to resolve the inconsistencies in Trek if I take them as differences in interpretation by different dramatizers. Presumably the underlying reality is more consistent, and those details that make the least sense or conflict the most with the whole can be seen as poetic license or error on the part of a given dramatization.
I've seen you say this about Roddenberry on a number of occasions, and I'm not sure why it should be relevant. Certainly we owe GR due respect as the creator of the show, but out of all the Trek out there he was only the primary creative force behind two seasons of TOS, two seasons of TNG, and the first movie. And even in the earliest days, much of it was shaped by Gene Coon and Bob Justman. (Just as Bob Kane may be the "creator" of Batman, but the character wouldn't be a shadow of what he is without Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson.) So however Roddenberry might have preferred to see things, 30 or more years ago, that shouldn't really influence how we choose to interpret canon that is, as you say, an aggregate construct, one that has grown tremendously since then. "Poetic license" still seems to me a last-resort approach when things just can't make sense otherwise.

Somebody really needs to compile a YouTube video showing all the things in TOS that were contradicted by TNG, DS9, or even later episodes of TOS. The idea that Star Trek has ever had tight continuity becomes absolutely ridiculous if you actually sit down and watch it from beginning to end.
Well, obviously it's never had perfect continuity. As I observed, that's a limit condition that's not really achievable. But when you compare it to most TV series, I'd say that it has indeed had tight continuity, very much so.

Because that's how canon works. Show X does an episode establishing fact Y. At that point fact Y is part of the canon, even if Show W has said something different.
But that "fundamentalist" approach is boring. It asks viewers to turn their brains off, to accept whatever's on screen and not ask awkward questions. What's the point of that?

We've all been discussing an obvious contradiction within this very episode, after all... we were told in dialogue that Starbase One was 100 AU from Earth, yet we were shown the base orbiting an earthlike planet. Clearly both things can't be true. Your approach, however, would simply say "they're both canon" and take it all at face value... which leads to outright absurdities, like for instance posters suggesting that maybe an AU means some different distance in the 23rd century. In a case like this (which is undeniably pretty trivial), it may in fact make the most sense to take a real-world POV and gloss it over by acknowledging "the FX team screwed up"... but the more significant a contradiction, the more interesting and important it is to look for a sensible, non-absurd, in-universe explanation.
 
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Could it be Eris, which is 97.65 AUs from Earth at it's aphelion? Wiki says it's white, has a methane atmosphere and ice on the surface. Or (225088) 2007 OR10 who's aphelion is 101.02 AU and has water ice and methane?
That would make as much sense as anything. They just flubbed the visuals. Or the flubbed the dialogue. One way or another. It's not the end of the world I love the show, just a minor thing.

In the same episode terraforming was performed by a single starship. It's not possible that this could be a product of... wait for it... terraforming?

Possible but would not make sense. Why terraform something that far out from a star? You'd then have to essentially make a tiny sun to light it and keep it warm. And as it's a dwarf world, whatever atmosphere you put down will eventually, though not immediately, be lost. Why terraform a tiny world anyway? If you have magic floorboards that make one-earth g, the very low g of a body like Eris would be uncomfortable and might (there's no medical studies really at partial g) long term lead to bone loss and muscle atrophy, not to mention tubal pregnancies. Just build big Yorktown type worlds.

I just think they got the number wrong. As I stated, not a huge deal.
 
I just choose not to take the visuals literally. A lot of the visual effects in this show bear no relation to plausible reality -- like the time they showed an O star as orange instead of blue, or the time the cloaked sarcophagus ship was just sitting there in its last known location while the Discovery was jumping around trying to find it. So I rely on the dialogue rather than the visuals to tell us what's actually intended to be there.
Other than the enjoyment from nitpicking what I consider a simple VFX error, I don't think it should matter either. Starbase 1 is supposed to be 100 AUs from Earth, it was written in the script that way, and we might never learn what happened. This is exactly the kind of oversight that, if confirmed, would be unceremoniously fixed/updated for the DVD release in any other series.
 
It's a matter of two different frames of mind. Consider the ur-source of the term "canon," the Bible. It's chock full of contradictions, of course. Trying to tease out those contradictions and figure out (as a theologian) how they might actually make sense together, or (as a textual analyst) how they got that way, is far more interesting than approaching the book as a fundamentalist and insisting that every word in it has to be taken at face value.
You are again conflating two ideas. I can fully accept the Biblical canon as is, and still be anything on a spectrum from fundamental literalist to broad strokes progressive interpreter when it comes to the theology and content of the canon. I am not required to be a textual fundamentalist by accepting the canon of the Bible as that only refers to what texts are included.
I can also make a different argument entirely, which is that the Biblical canon is wrong, and that a different set of texts should represent the 'true' Bible.
To return to Star Trek, it is the difference between arguing whether, say, TAS, is canonical, and arguing whether we should take uber-literally every line and fact established in Trek to date as immovable and irrefutable, or insist that the contents of the canon are consistent with each other.
When people ask 'is something canon', the answer, if it appears in a live action movie or TV show, is a resounding 'yes'. Whether it fits into the continuity established as 'prime' is a different question.
 
In a case like this (which is undeniably pretty trivial), it may in fact make the most sense to take a real-world POV and gloss it over by acknowledging "the FS team screwed up"... but the more significant a contradiction, the more interesting and important it is to look for a sensible, non-absurd, in-universe explanation.
This got me thinking of the everlasting Klingon Battlecruiser design that was put into ENT because the execs didn't like the D4 John Eaves designed and suddenly everyone began trying to explain why the Klingons would be using an apparently unchanged design for more than 200 years.
 
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