And, yet, here we are...how the mighty have fallen...
“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?
- Thread starter Groppler Zorn
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I'm a TOS Original watcher and I like all the iterations of Trek we've gotten through the years.
Though I do admit that NEMESIS disappointed me greatly more with what they didn't show, than with what they did.
The director was completely wrong for that movie and it shows that he had no clue about it.
Though I do admit that NEMESIS disappointed me greatly more with what they didn't show, than with what they did.
The director was completely wrong for that movie and it shows that he had no clue about it.
I would disagree.
The parts of TNG where all the officers were sitting in the lounge, discussing the problem/etical dilemma of the week was IMO one of the highlights of TNG. And has aged a whole lot better than the "action" or a lot of the vfx of the show. It's also what makes Star Trek as a property unique in the modern franchise world.
In fact, even TOS did this a lot. They didn't have a conference lounge for it, and it was usually only Kirk, Spock and McCoy having a debate (usually ending with a Kirk speech). And because of the lack of a lounge they had theses discussion more often than not in the actual situation (say, in the middle of the illusion of an old Western town, or in a Nazi prison cell). Which did IMO wonders for the feel of the episode, as it felt less like a board meeting, and more like being right in the adventure while discussing it.
But overall, the main characters arguing about solving problems in different ways is pretty much one of the core concepts os "Star Trek" overall. The rest - space battles and action adventures - can be found in literally any other SF/fantasy property as well. This is Trek's unique selling point. And sadly, they have been severely underusing it since the 00's, coinciding with the loss of mainstream audiences.
I think I know what you mean. TMP did feel much like Star Trek until almost the very end, with the V’Ger reveal. Spock and McCoy arguing as always over some Big Idea, with Kirk synthesizing their positions. It was my favorite part of the film and I wish we’d seen more of it.
Yes, it's a platonic dialogue. You put a moral dilemma into play and have characters debate it within a dramatic frame. This is also why Trek's mainstream appeal is ultimately limited. Most people aren't really interested in exploring high concepts and are only there for the pew-pew.
WINE!
Chateau Picard makes you drive like wild!
"Prepare for RAMMING speed!"
I thought the 'Mid-Life crisis' was "ST: Insurrection" with "Latin Mambo" Picard ":
[IDK how some people can watch either INS or NEM all the way through...]
Like you said TOS did Briefing Room scenes to, but rarely were they as sleep inducing or in general as heavily Sermon-ish or moralizing/patronizing as some of the TNG ones; although there were a few like that in TOS' run. At least TOS didn't rely on re configuring the deflector dish to save the day in the last 5 minutes to fix the 'plot device' problem every other week.
Of all the Star Trek I still catch overall TNG has aged the worst. YMMV of course.
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Characters working together to debate and solve problems is nothing new in any entertainment media. To suggest that these "high concepts" are more prevalent and more effectively explored in Star Trek is simply not true.
And I'm not arguing against that construct it all. It's a matter of how it's done that is most important. To me watching a bunch of people sitting together in a conference room, which is a very static and uninteresting environment, to have these discussions and debates was TNG's greatest weakness. The way thTOS went about the same process was far more entertaining and realistic.
Like I said, if I want to see conference table debates I can do that for nine hours a day at work. When I tune in to my favorite sci-fi franchise, I expect there to be a little bit more dynamic excitement to it. To demean that as only being interested in pew-pew is ridiculous and frankly tremendously disingenuous.
12 Angry Men is one of my favorite movies. They just sit around all movie arguing about a case. But both sides are so passionate it keeps you compelled. Especially as the jury gradually switches sides on their verdict.
Politics aside, regardless of whatever you think of them, the 2016 Debates between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. It was mostly just two candidates at a podium... but it might as well have been a wrestling match!
Then, there's DS9's "Duet". Mostly just talking heads and a shouting match between Kira and "Gul Darheel" who's so casual about the atrocities done during the Occupation -- or as he'd say "What atrocities?" -- and so horrible, that you just want to punch him in the face.
All examples of how you can have talking heads and still have it be entertaining while getting you to think at the same time.
Politics aside, regardless of whatever you think of them, the 2016 Debates between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. It was mostly just two candidates at a podium... but it might as well have been a wrestling match!
Then, there's DS9's "Duet". Mostly just talking heads and a shouting match between Kira and "Gul Darheel" who's so casual about the atrocities done during the Occupation -- or as he'd say "What atrocities?" -- and so horrible, that you just want to punch him in the face.
All examples of how you can have talking heads and still have it be entertaining while getting you to think at the same time.
Love "Duet." One of my favorite DS9 eps.
But one can argue that there's a difference between a heated confrontation in, say, a courtroom or interrogation room, and people calmly discussing an issue in a conference room. TNG's aversion to interpersonal conflict may have worked against its meeting scenes to a degree.
Note that it's "Twelve Angry Men, " not "Twelve Evolved Humans."
But one can argue that there's a difference between a heated confrontation in, say, a courtroom or interrogation room, and people calmly discussing an issue in a conference room. TNG's aversion to interpersonal conflict may have worked against its meeting scenes to a degree.
Note that it's "Twelve Angry Men, " not "Twelve Evolved Humans."
Love "Duet." One of my favorite DS9 eps.
But one can argue that there's a difference between a heated confrontation in, say, a courtroom or interrogation room, and people calmly discussing an issue in a conference room. TNG's aversion to interpersonal conflict may have worked against its meeting scenes to a degree.
Note that it's "Twelve Angry Men, " not "Twelve Evolved Humans."
I believe that highlights my point well, thank you!
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Most sitcoms are essentially "put a relationship dilemma into play and have characters debate it", usually in a standing set like their apartment, house or favourite bar. And those can have tremendous mainstream appeal.
It comes all down to the characters involved. Kirk and Spock enjoyed mainstream appeal. As did Picard and Data. (And their supporting group). And in both cases the "interpersonal conflict" was pretty limited.
Love "Duet." One of my favorite DS9 eps.
But one can argue that there's a difference between a heated confrontation in, say, a courtroom or interrogation room, and people calmly discussing an issue in a conference room. TNG's aversion to interpersonal conflict may have worked against its meeting scenes to a degree.
Note that it's "Twelve Angry Men, " not "Twelve Evolved Humans."
Duet is in my top 3 favourite DS9 episodes actually!
I don't know. I really like the TNG meeting scenes. That the characters didn't try to wrangle every time was a refreshing different take compared to any other show. Not everything has to be Battlestar Galactica and be build on relationship drama.
The thing is: The problem itself has to be entertaining enough that it becomes fun to watch the characters try to solve it. TNG's timeloop episode ("Cause and effect") was basicallly 50% meeting room scene. And it's one of the best high concept science fiction episodes ever created.
The caveat comes when the problem is itself actually kinda' boring, like on many episodes involving a "planet of the hats". Then it can get really tedious. And it's damn hard to come up with an interesting problem on a weekly basis.
Exactly, the "how it's done" is important. Put a bunch of people in room can be both boring as hell, or chilling with excitement. The "high concept" is not the people talking about a problem - it has to be the problem itself. Like, "what if the Enterprise is caught in a time-loop?". What makes Star Trek unique is that it's (usually) a series set during peace-time, contrasted to 99% of all other science fiction, and thus the problems should ideally be more than "defeat the badguy of the week", but actually an interesting moral conondrum, dilemma, or weird space problem.
And yes, the way TOS treated it - discuss the problem on the spot - is usually far more interesting and diverse than it was on TNG. And this is definitely a thing where the new series should take a note or two from TOS again - you can have BOTH exciting new worlds and characters engaging in thoughful discussions about it. Adventure doesn't have to be non-stop action all the time. It can be as simple as a change in setting.
That being said, I purely love the fact that a conference room - for all characters to come together and discuss the problem until they have a workable solution, or at least a decision - has such a prominent place in TNG! This is both so unique, and at the same time inspiring, I can't help but love it. Even if they overdo it sometimes.
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I can see where you're coming from here. Makes sense...!
The Trek franchise has been screwing up its timeline since the 1980s movies. Why point the blame on Voyager? Because it's not led by a man?
I'm still flabbergasted that the producers would create a new show around Picard. If they wanted to do a new series post-Voyager, why not simply create a new set of characters in the lead, with the occasional veteran character popping up every now and then?
No one brought up gender here except you.
He didn't mention anything about gender, so please don't make those kinds of insinuations without justification.
The Briefing Room scene in The Corbomite Maneuver is my favorite.I thought the 'Mid-Life crisis' was "ST: Insurrection" with "Latin Mambo" Picard ":
[IDK how some people can watch either INS or NEM all the way through...]
Like you said TOS did Briefing Room scenes to, but rarely were they as sleep inducing or in general as heavily Sermon-ish or moralizing/patronizing as some of the TNG ones; although there were a few like that in TOS' run. At least TOS didn't rely on re configuring the deflector dish to save the day in the last 5 minutes to fix the 'plot device' problem every other week.
Of all the Star Trek I still catch overall TNG has aged the worst. YMMV of course.
The entire briefing room segment in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is my favorite in all series, but there are many that are also very good.
As for TOS, the "Risk is our Business" speech in "Return to Tomorrow" is a stand-out. The sequence in "Obsession" with McCoy's trophy-not-on-the-wall-but-in-it quip, also outstanding. "Balance of Terror" has a nice, if melodramatic, sequence with Spock crushing the hardest known substance with his bare hand. Spock's flypaper remark in "The Corbomite Maneuver" is chilling.
Many wonderful exchanges take place in the briefing room even though the scenes aren't properly "briefing room scenes." The exchange between Kirk and McCoy in "The Ultimate Computer" comes to mind with Kirk's genius-doesn't-work-on-an-assembly-line mini-speech; it's a private exchange between the two of them that could easily have occurred in Kirk's quarters.
As for TOS, the "Risk is our Business" speech in "Return to Tomorrow" is a stand-out. The sequence in "Obsession" with McCoy's trophy-not-on-the-wall-but-in-it quip, also outstanding. "Balance of Terror" has a nice, if melodramatic, sequence with Spock crushing the hardest known substance with his bare hand. Spock's flypaper remark in "The Corbomite Maneuver" is chilling.
Many wonderful exchanges take place in the briefing room even though the scenes aren't properly "briefing room scenes." The exchange between Kirk and McCoy in "The Ultimate Computer" comes to mind with Kirk's genius-doesn't-work-on-an-assembly-line mini-speech; it's a private exchange between the two of them that could easily have occurred in Kirk's quarters.
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