Boldy ranting where other rants have gone before

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Gamma_Quadrant, May 31, 2007.

  1. Gamma_Quadrant

    Gamma_Quadrant Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Before people flip out and think I made a topic bashing VOY, let me explain. I think the idea of the show was incredible. A show where a Federation ship is lost in the truly unknown, alone and without back up. To top it off, half of the crew is going to be members of an organization that disliked the Federation. Both sides must unite if they want to live and make it back to their homes in the Alpha quadrant. Sounds good doesn't it? Too bad VOY completely ruined all of that. Instead of becoming a serious show about coping with life in an alien "universe", they did the exact same thing that TNG did, except weaken it. When it comes down to it, VOY simply did not take enough risks. It did not go boldly, but timidly. It had so many oppurtunities to be revolutionary, but it didn't do it. Imagine if TNG played it safe and didn't let Picard become assimilated? Or Sisko violating the prime directive to force the Romulans into the Dominion War? We would have lost such great character developing episodes.

    Going into the unknown...

    Q sent the Entreprise-D to the Delta quadrant because things humanity are not ready for were there, for example, the Borg. The Borg were so advanced and powerful, that they could take out a fleet of Federation ships. Wait...did I say they? I meant ONE of their ships could do that. VOY traveled through the Delta quadrant and did not meet any unique species. The only ones that were interesting were the Nacene(Caretaker species). They were wasted really fast. Everyone else was something that you would see in the Alpha quadrant. The Hirogen, Malon, Vidiians, Kazon, and Species 8472 while plain looking(minus 8472 who looked awesome), actually had pretty cool cultures. But they were still something I would expect to find in the Alpha quadrant. A complete dissapointment. The anomalies were not really interesting either. It was things that VOY were able to always easily get out of without any repurcussions. There was nothing unique about the Delta quadrant. They may as well have done a show in the Alpha. It seemed like they just wanted to abuse the idea of being lost. Wasted now...

    Maquis and Federation crew...

    There was SO much potential with this. Season I dealt with it for a little while. It was a problem, but after season I, it didn't seem to matter. They just melded into the crew and that was that. Now they were all a Federation crew. Yippee! BORING. Not risky at all. What was the point of making them Maquis? They became Federation officers starting season II anyways... They shouldn't have made the Maquis, a people who were willing to die for their cause, such push overs. Janeway NEEDED them due to the losses she suffered. Chakotay could have agreed to be a commander, but said they would not always go with Federation rules. That they would never follow the prime directive. Can you imagine how conflicting that would have been in future episodes? If Janeway pulled the "No! This is a Federation ship! We follow the Prime Directive!!!(Unless I need to violate it, which I do a lot later with no remorse)." He could said "I just scarficed my ship to save this one. You owe us. Good luck flying the ship without any backup and half the normal compliment of crewman..." She would have had to crumble. Then in future episodes when a problem arose, Janeway could preach the Prime Directive, while Chakotay would argue how a Maquis officer would do it. So much conflict. DS9 had it with the Federation officers mixing with the Bajoran Militia. They dealt with it well and the Bajorans never became the quintesential Federation officers. I won't even comment on how cool it would have been for a mutiny arc. Like three episodes dedicated to a VOY civil war. Such a waste...

    Q and the Borg...

    The VOY fans get angry when I say this, but both of those brilliant ideas made by TNG, were wasted with this show. The Borg were beaten season after season after season. Wait, the Borg? By Voyager? The little science ship? Are you saying the little science ship could do what a fleet of Federation starships could not do? I doubt it. They watered down the Borg for plot points. Seven of Nine was a VERY good idea on VOY's part. Her assistance could probably find weaknesses with Borg, but it only goes so far. The Borg would adapt from her absence and knowledge. She can only help the ship so much. The Borg were a terrifying enemy, but no longer. Once the ship reached the dreaded Borg space, the following seasons could have revolved around surviving against the Borg. Please note I'm not saying, FIGHTING, I said surviving. Can you imagine how gritty it would be for the ship having to survive through Borg space? While I do like the way they got out of it, "Kes' gift", I thought it was a cheap deus ex machina. They managed to completely circumvent Borg space and back to TNG, watered down. Yay. VOY gets lost in the area of space where the Borg are from and they skip their entire space in one episode. What was the point? Yes, I know people will point out the Borg were later seen, even out of their space. True, but they came back week after week, where VOY would easily blow them up. I will admit that VOY made two good Borg episodes when Chakotay found that "collective" that was freed from the Borg Collective. Also, the episode when three Borg came onboard and they used to know Seven. Because of her, they were trapped in a mini collective. This show took a risk by killing them off at the end, instead of the EMH finding a miracle cure. Not enough of these episodes though. They should have shown Hugh, the Borg from TNG, in the show. He was supposed to be freeing Borg if I recall or how about the Borg freed from the "Dream world". Didn't they discover a way to free other Borg too? That was never heard of again. So much wasted with the Borg.
    Onto Q now. He was of course this trickster alien. An omnipotent being that would torture humanity, not just for amusement, but for a lesson to be learned. Testing humanity to see if they could go into the unknown. What the hell happened to Q in VOY? Death Wish. A good episode, albeight a predictable one. I knew Quinn would not join the crew with all of his knowledge. He would get the crew home in a week, bending a geodesic folds and such. Good idea nonetheless, although the idea of an omnipotent being wanting to die because he was bored is so flawed. Its such a Human made idea. "I wouldn't want to live forever! I'd get bored!" Um...what? In a universe that is forever expanding and new species are born everyday with infinite realities, you get bored? I doubt it. He should have simply wanted to experiance death. To see a TRUE unknown. Not..."I'm bored." Then the Q civil war emerged from this dumb idea. Not to mention, we finally see the much talked about continuim from TNG, and its a friggin desert road. What the hell was that all about? I understand its supposed to be imagery. "The road is the universe and leads back here. We've done everything there is to do!" STUPID. I doubt the universe can ever been fully seen, omnipotent alien or not. They explored the universe and all of time? Come on. Beings that have become masters of time itself should not be getting bored of their jobs. They don't work at friggin Burger King flipping burgers. Q wants to bear a child with Janeway. Ok, gross. But fine whatever. I'll admit that Q and Janeway play off of each other brilliantly. Too bad that it was wasted. Can you imagine Q popping up every know and then torturing VOY? He could offer them a way home, but by doing so, they would have to A) violate the prime directive or B) Hurt a species or whatever. Can you imagine him going secretly to the Maquis Chakotay and offering the same deal? Janeway and Chakotay conflicting. Nope. Instead he becomes a dad by...humerously I'll admit...mating. When he becomes a dad...the Q we knew DIED. He became this NICE, now grown up, alien. Please bring Q back from TNG. Please....

    Um...how many shuttles and crewman can you lose? VOY battle damage?

    Here are some more repurcussions that NEVER surfaced. Shuttles were easily rebuilt, no problem to resources. Once every season a resource problem would sprout. In the end, VOY would always get it. So freaking boring. This show had the only ship that could land on a planet. They did it what? Every one episode every two seasons? WASTE. I'm not saying they should have abused it to the point where it got boring, but a little more use of it's "uniqueness" would have been nice. Can you imagine if the USS Defiant NEVER cloaked? They should have landed more often to hide from enemies, due to engine problems, the crew wanting to actually GO to a planet. I don't care, just anything. Resources should have been a problem. They never did and when I say problem? I don't mean, at the beginning and then they get it in the end. I mean, they never get them and from then on something doesn't work. There was never a sense of danger. Can you imagine after losing crewman after crewman, what toll that would take on the ship? Well, apparently it had none on the show. Because the loss of crewman was barely ever mentioned. They should have lost so many, that it would start to become a worry. That security officers would be helping in engineering, while science officers were helping the injured in sickbay. A sense of unity within the ship. The ship was marketed as not a standard Federation ship. Yet it sure did look and act like one. They could have "solved" the loss of crewman problem by absorbing the Equinox crew. Lastly is battle damage. Every episode....VOY would look spotless and nice. Such a pretty ship. I've seen worse looking starships that DID recieve maintaince constantly. What is the deal? How did they always repair the hull if they never land anyways eh? Also, if you tell me "They went to alien stations for repairs!!!" Really? That is exactly what the ENT-D did. So what was the point of being lost without help then if they could go to a space station for repairs? Can you imagine how cool it would have been if the next episode, Janeway is complaining to Torres about the damaged phaser array? It would show continuity. It would show DAMAGE. Eventually of course it would be repaired, but at least give it like three seasons or something. I like Year of Hell, because it shows the way it should have been. How the bulkheads were falling apart. The crew had DIRTY uniforms. Injured crewman all about. Everyone, captain included, rushing to repair things. It would have made a sense of closeness amongst them. Guess not...

    Equinox-WASTED

    I would like to comment on the Equinox and what a waste. Raise your hands if you didn't know the Equinox would be destroyed by the end of the two parter. Yeah, It was painfully obvious the Equinox wouldn't make it. Such a waste. I know maintaining two ships in the show would have been impossible, but maybe for a few more episodes? That would have been cool. The two ships helping each other or as reoccuring enemies. The two parter could have ended with the Equinox fleeing after VOY emerged victorious. Then maybe it popping in and out every few episodes. Like Weyoune did for DS9. Eventually, after being a reoccuring bad guy to VOY, finally the fight comes down to Ransom and Janeway. Ransom suddenly turning good was weak IMO. I mean, at least they kept the commander guy bad. But Janeway could finally beat Ransom. Then they bring the Equinox and VOY to a planet and completely strip it of resources and hull parts, etc. It could be left behind, a dead monument to a corrupt group of officers. Janeway could then force the Equinox crew to join them or remain on the planet. Show a more FORCEFUL Janeway.

    Having ethics is a good thing right?

    Last but not least, ethics. Something Janeway loved to have until she needed to shed it for personal gain. How cool would it have been if Janeway, after years of struggles and Chakotay's whisperings of disobedience, for her to start to question the prime directive. She did it on the show, I'll admit that. But in the end, minus Tuvix, she would find a way to not violate it. Tuvix would have been cool on her part, if she wasn't so damn hypocritical. At some points she liked using it and at others, she didn't. Hypocrite. It should have gotten to the point where the ship was so bad that she would give a small amount of bio-memtic gel to a culture for hull parts or something. I'm not saying she should have become as bad as Ransom, but her ethics should have become less than savory. Not because she is evil, but because she is desperate to bring her crew home. Anyway possible...

    Did the Dominion War happen in this universe?

    Would it have killed VOY to mention the Dominion War a litte more? The very place they were trying to return to was in danger! What was with the apathetic view with the war? It's not like Starfleet got into wars every other day, did it? The Dominion (arguably) was one of the greatest threats the Federation ever faced. They should have mentioned the Breen attack on San Francisco. There should have been WAY more with the destruction of the Maquis by the Dominion. There was only that episode when Torres was suicidel, but...that's it. Another mention of the Dominion was the episode where the USS Prometheus was captured by the Romulans. Romulans!?!? That makes no sense at all. Why would the Romulans capture it? How many times can the Romulans do stuff like that to the Federation and Starfleet will simply ignore it? It should have been the Jem'Hadar, possibly with everyone's favorite Vorta(Weyoun) at the helm, to have stolen it. If Starfleet was planning on using the power of the Prometheus class against somebody, it would be the Dominion, not the Romulans. I know the Romulans hadn't joined the war yet, but it still was dumb. They should have better connected it. I understand that the DS9 people didn't want their precious creations to mix with VOY and vice versa, thus the lack of continuity in some cases, but it wouldn't have killed them. It wasn't really a plot hole or anything that Romulans did it, but I think that there was this...strange idea that they should ignore DS9 going ons.

    Temporal Federation boldly went...no where

    What was the deal with the temporal Federation? Arguably one of the worst inclusions in Trek history. How many times did the TOS, TNG, DS9, and other crews affect time? Why were they never there? Why did they not save Earth when the Borg attacked it(in the past)? Why did they not help Sisko, Bashir, and Dax in the early 21st century? Why did they not help Kirk and co. get a whale? What? Are they just lazy and prefer the other crews to handle it? What was the point of their inclusion? At least in ENT, it made a little more sense, but in VOY....ugh...

    Endgame...my oh my...

    I'm sure there are topics about Endgame and all that, so I won't go on a long rant about them. However, Janeway's actions... what the...? She violated the temporal prime directive (uh...where did Temporal Federation go...again?). It makes no sense that the character does that. How many aliens and others did Voyager go on to save? Well...they certainly wouldn't now thanks to Admiral Janeway. She went back because the "family" is broken, but she only went back in time to save a FEW people, not the entire crew! What about them? Didn't she worry that bringing futuristic weapons would alter the balance of power when she brought them home to the Alpha quadrant? I guess not by the looks of it. All she could see were her crew. There were too many questions, more then answers in that episode. Poorly done...

    Ok that is my rant and my observations on VOY and it's missed oppurtunities. I'm sure others have commented on some of this stuff before. If so, sorry. I don't mean to beat a dead horse. Also, this isn't a "I hate VOY" topic. I do like VOY, but I'm simply dissapointed on the missed opportunities. Feel free to debate and discuss...
     
  2. UssHell

    UssHell Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Ohhhhhh ouch brutle...
    But I agree will to much of the above points
    I also have my own: why did they explain all da 'physics' stuff all wrong/barly right? o.O
     
  3. Squiggy

    Squiggy FrozenToad Admiral

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    1. Why would Deltan look any different than Alphans? Trek already said why pretty much everyone was humanoid. Plus, given the fact that mid-90s CGI was good for only vessel rendering, there's not much more they could've done.

    2. Actually, they never became Federation officers, they still held their provisional rank until the end of the series. And I think you'd be complaining about how "they kept up the conflict longer than was realistic" in the event they had dragged out the Maquis story line.

    3. Your Equinox idea sounds lame.

    4. The Dominion War happened in this universe...but about 60,000 light years away...so, why dealv into it?

    t was mentioned in the episode "Ship in a Bottle" when the Doctor was downloaded to a Fed Ship in the Beta Quadrant. But, since Voyager wasn't really in contact with Starfleet until after the war was over (season 6/7, the war ended at the end of Voyager Season 5, around the time of "Equinox")...what do you want? There was a show that dealt heavily with the Dominion War. It was called Deep Space Nine. Check it out on Amazon.
     
  4. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    I’m not a mod or anything, but this looks deceivingly a lot like a troll.

    One should wait until he has a few posts under his belt before he teeters that line.
    ;)
     
  5. Gamma_Quadrant

    Gamma_Quadrant Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    1. Why would they look different? Did you read my post? As I said, in TNG, they practically made it out to be this distant, incredible place (take into consideration that the CGI was even WORSE back then). VOY made it seem like another area of the Alpha quadrant. Other then the Borg, was there anything really...unique about the Delta quadrant?

    2. Ok...I was talking about them falling into line with Starfleet customs, rules, and procedures, not that they literally gained positions. My complaint is that in DS9/TNG the Maquis acted much differently then the ones in VOY. Yes, the situations were different, but it seems like they tossed out their beliefs rather quickly. Then later on in the show, them being Maquis was barely mentioned at all. Didn't they wonder what they would do once they got back to the Alpha quadrant? If they would take up their old fight again(even though the Maquis were wiped out)? It seemed to me that they wanted to return to Earth and live their lives in Starfleet. Well...so much for what the Federation did to those on the DMZ...

    3. I'm glad you think it's lame. Your debate skills are incredible.

    4. I didn't say delve into it. However, isn't it a bit unrealistic that they had this uncaring attitude that their world, you know...the one the entire show revolved around, the one they were fighting to get to, was in danger? I'm not saying they could do anything about it or that they should sit around weeping about it, but the Dominion War was really just...a passing thought to them. As I said in my post though, I understand why they didn't mention them often as both the DS9 people and the VOY people didn't want to mix it altogether.

    I know about the episode "message in a bottle", again, did you read the post? :p I clearly mentioned it and even discussed the episode that you pointed out. I'm well aware of DS9, I'm a fan of it, but I'm also a fan of Trek(all around), which is why I wish there was more continuity behind it. Something that bound the universe together moreso then just the name "Starfleet".

    CorporalClegg :lol: I'm a troll? What type of troll makes a post as large as mine? A troll would have made a topic called "VOY suxs!!!" They would not sit around and back up each point. Not any troll I know at least...

    I made other posts around this forum and I would think that they would show I'm not a troll. I'm simply trying to garner a debate on VOY, nothing more.

    Thanks for the responses though.
     
  6. Gadrin

    Gadrin Commander Red Shirt

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    well, I'm no Trekkie, but after watching TOS the newer shows were an improvement, head & shoulders.

    still, I knew Trek was going to be formulaic, and it's pretty standard Trek fare that when Starfleet people shoot each other they'll forgive and forget and the next show will be like nothing happened (it happened in every series).

    So yes, while your points are valid, they don't impress me much, because, most of us know what we're in for, probably why most fans watch it.

    I must say of all the series, Voyager writing was pretty good or let me put it this way -- it's the only series that I watch consistently.

    TNG -- I couldn't take too seriously.
    DS9 -- first few years were okay, cheesy overall
    Voyager -- surprisingly good
    Enterprise -- a few hits here and there, mostly misses

    One thing about Trek from TNG on, was the sets and props. While other sci-fi shows go for the "nerf" props (slam a door and it looks like it's made of styrofoam) the Trek sets were usually very believable.

    Overall, acting, story, sets and CGI, Voyager gets TWO THUMBS UP from me. :)
     
  7. Gamma_Quadrant

    Gamma_Quadrant Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Good post Gadrin, but I think that my...post is being confused with general hatred for Voyager(thus, some of the hostile posts) :p. The show itself isn't bad, at least not in my opinion.

    However, my main complaint overrall was that Voyager had a lot of missed opportunities...
     
  8. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have to admit, I think Voyager handled the Maquis angle pretty well, which was basically an excuse to introduce some colourful characters (Paris, Torres, Suder, Seska) that wouldn't have ordinarily been part of a 24 century starfleet crew.

    I meean, realistically, how long would the Maquis and Starfleet continue? Many of the Maquis were former Starfleet, and those that weren't were still effective and loyal crewmen under Chakotay. I would expect them to behave in the same manner on any ship, wouldn't you? Why would they hold a grudge against the Starfleet crew based on a territorial dispute going on a lifetime away? There might be some lingering resentment against the Federation, but the whole situation is a galaxy away, and survival was obviously the most important consideration.

    Think of it this way: If someone kidnapped everyone who posts in TNZ and dumped them on an island, what do you think they'd do? Would they work together to survive, or keep arguing about Iraq?

    Besides, later on in the series they discover the other Maquis have been wiped out, and that the Federation is now at war with the group that did it. Surely that'd bond the crew together, if nothing else did.
     
  9. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    I would disagree with you

    TOS Very Good for the most Part S1-2, more miss than hit S3
    TNG S1-2 Poor S3-5 Very Good, S6-7 hit and miss
    DSN S1-2 Average S3-S7 Generally very good
    VOY Wasted oppertunity, more miss than hit.
    ENT S1 ok, S2 poor S3-4 Dramatic quality improvement.

    But everyone is intitled to their viewpoint, I just honestly feel that Voyager could have been so much more than it was.
     
  10. Gadrin

    Gadrin Commander Red Shirt

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    but ain't that the truth for almost every TV show out there ? no one always hits the mark.

    I never watched Seinfeld until re-runs and my god ! what a show. plenty of duds in there too. I think the show was better than Jerry's act. however I understand the TV guide cover that had: Jerry...please comeback !!! even on it's bad days, it still was better than lots of other stuff.

    I don't care for ALL of Voyager. I have the DVDs and I usually do a "best of" from each year, as I watch them. I'm just about to start it all over again for the 4th go-round. :D
     
  11. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Hey, you'd be surprised. Sometimes the best trolls are the one who take the most time. (Or with the biggest clubs?)

    It was merely a friendly warning. There’ve been many examples of people who make long exhaustive, critical posts and when they get negative responses you never hear from them again.


    Oh, and don’t laugh at me. My self-esteem doesn’t like it much. :p
     
  12. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    Way I saw it, the reason that the DQ was such an empty, bland place was entirely because of the Borg. They assimilated anyone real worthwhile cultures and left the dregs behind.

    And any cultures powerful enough to fight off the Borg would be so frickin invincible that there's nothing VOY could've done to get their attention, so they're out too.

    As for the Fleet/Maquis thing, these people were trapped 75 years from home with hostile pirates hunting them, in a situation like that people can't afford to be at each others' throats, they have to work together or they would DIE. I have no problem with them setting their differences aside to get by.

    And besides, the Maquis' battle was with the Cardassians, not the Federation. There's no real hate there.

    And why would Chakotay be so Anti-fleet? He was a Starfleet Officer, and he wasn't even a traitor like Eddington was. Chakotay officially resigned his commission and THEN joined the Maquis, he didn't leave his post and betray Federation secrets to the Maquis.
     
  13. Good Will Riker

    Good Will Riker Admiral

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    Such as the Kazon. Personally, I don't blame them.
     
  14. Equinox

    Equinox Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Let me guess Gamma_Quadrant, you think DS9 is the best "Trek" ever, right?

    You like the dirty, gritty universe DS9 shows, huh? And you're upset Voyager isn't like DS9? Well allow me to let you in on something --- Voyager is MORE Trek than DS9 will ever be.

    I'm not hating on DS9, I'm just saying that DS9 is a person's completely different take on the Trek universe the original TOS and TNG established --- costumes, species and ships sound like Star Trek but DS9 is more like Trek's second cousin. Voyager was like TNG, a retelling of TOS stories and characters only with better visuals, more tech talk and richer Trek history to draw from.

    If you didn't like that Delta Quadrant aliens weren't cool enough, well I'm sorry. I would have taken humanoid aliens over silly and fake looking 90s TV-quality CG-characters any day.

    Didn't like the Equinox story? Well I did and I think it was a smart move having them briefly encounter the ship instead of them joining up and making a mini-Delta Quadrant Starfleet. Voyager was supposed to be about VOYAGER. Not VOY and the OTHER ship(s).

    Didn't like that the Borg and Q were "watered down" in Voyager? Well sorry to say this but the Borg were never THAT scary. They really weren't that smart either - I mean, they had HUMAN and CYBORG parts and believed perfection was in an almost impossible to find molecule. They blindly assimilated cultures and avoided a take over of the Alpha Quadrant during TNG's time because of ONE ship's failure w/ Picard/Locutus? As for Q, he's/it's Q. Q's quirky. Q's random. Q is everything, Q is nothing. Q is still awesome to this day and I don't believe Voyager messed with his/their appeal at all.

    Maquis storyline? Thinka bout it - it'd be pretty hard for the Maquis to keep any sort of rebellious thoughts going on for months and months after coming aboard while they are becoming friends and adjusting to a different but more stable Starfleet job/lifestyle. It makes sense - if there was STILL Maquis trouble a YEAR or FOUR after Caretaker wouldn't you think Janeway would just drop them off on the nearest M-class planet???

    Time Travel - Voyager didn't do this to death. ENT did the Time Travel thing to death for such a short time it was on. And so you don't like Time Travel eps - who cares? I think if any show is written, directed and acted well the content can be anything almost and I'd still enjoy it. That's how it was with Voyager - not every script was perfect but the characters were always great to watch. ALWAYS.

    Dominion War? Watch DS9. The last thing on the Voyager's crew's minds would be a war going on on the other side of the galaxy. Besides, what good would bringing the DS9 story to Voyager do? The shows are like apples and oranges and wouldn't mix at all.

    Crewmen/Shuttles? I don't keep track of everything but yeah, Voyager lost a lot of shuttles. So what? You can't expect writers to keep up on EVERY technical detail like fanatic fans do. Plus, keep in mind that DS9 has that retarded "Prophet/Bajoran Religion" crap that comes up throughout the whole series and it makes no sense either.


    Endgame --- it's a very, very good finale. Not better than "All Good THings..." but just as good if not better than DS9's. I like that Janeway evolved from her character you see in the first episode where she *finally* cares more about her crew's future than the aliens and things that might be affected if she does things the SAFE and STRICT Starfleet way.







    BTW - Your paragraphs are way too long - I could barely get through them - make your points shorter and more-to-the-point. Oh, and it might not be good to go about acting like a troll (not saying you are) because TrekBBS Mods are hard asses about that - Trust me, I know - I was banned last year for 3 months!!!! :)
     
  15. Gamma_Quadrant

    Gamma_Quadrant Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I understand your point completely and I commend you on explaining it in an intelligent way.

    However, I think you're kind of misunderstanding what I'm saying. Not just you, but some others are as well. I'm not saying that I wanted the Maquis to be bad guys that would attack the Starfleet crew, nor did I want them to be a constant thorn in their side(not forever at least). I understand their situation prompted them to put their differences aside, I'm not arguing that and it's expected. However, it feels like it was never really addressed that they were Maquis. There was never really any conflict. I'm fine with them eventually absorbing into Starfleet, although I can't imagine REAL Maquis doing that, like Eddington or Cal Hudson. It would have been nice to maybe have the Maquis try and explain their position to the Starfleet officers, maybe have them realize that Starfleet didn't make the right decision(on the Cardassian treaty) or vice versa. Maybe Starfleet convinces them that their cause wasn't such a good one. There was almost no mention of their "cause". It didn't look like the Maquis had joined Starfleet out of a necessity for survival, but looked like they simply fell in line and forgot their pasts. I guess my complaint is that these Maquis didn't seem like really...hardened members. They quickly tossed aside their beliefs or surpressed them for Starfleet. The Maquis had no real obligation to join Starfleet or dress in their uniforms. VOY needed them as much as they needed VOY(crew compliment wise). It just seemed like they gave in rather easily and gave Starfleet everything they wanted. Their cause was thousands of light-years away, alright, fine, but their was no reason to simply absorb into the Starfleet crew and follow all of their rules. Yes, I know, Janeway said that the ship had to be run like a Starfleet ship and it was her rules or the highway. Ok....again, didn't they NEED the Maquis? Who was she to make such a demand?

    *insert Chakotay's line* "She's the captain..." :p

    I agree completely and that's all I'm trying to say.

    True, but the reason that it's a problem with Voyager was that part of the premise(the other part was them being lost and getting back home) was that two crews with opposite beliefs were going to mix. They made this big deal about it. Starfleet and Maquis must unite to survive!!!! Oh wow! That sounds really good, especially from what we've seen of them in TNG/DS9. However, after season I, them being Maquis didn't really matter. They turned into Starfleet officers with an attitude and...that's that. What was the point of that?

    I find myself in agreement with 14thDoctor when he said that them having the Maquis was an excuse to introduce "colorful characters" that would normally not be seen in Starfleet during this era.

    It's no problem. I just found it funny being called a troll, especially after seeing some of the very forward replies to this topic. :p

    Now that is a really good response. Good explanation as to why we see the Alpha Quadrant part II(for the most part). :)

    BTW, I'm not saying there weren't any good species. The Hirogen, Voth, Vidiians, were some of the best aliens in Trek, IMO.

    Ok, at this point, I have to find fault with myself in not properly articulating my stance on the Maquis subject.

    I understand completely that the Maquis were not going to fight the Starfleet crew and that they had to unite to survive. As I stated earlier, my point was there was almost no conflict, which is hard to believe. Yes, they had to be nice to each other, but the Maquis turned into goody-goody Starfleet officers. My complaint is they said that this will be different because it will be Maquis mixed with Starfleet! Well, it didn't seem like that was really important, unless they had to throw it in for a random episode...

    Uh oh...the VOY fans are out of the wood work. :p I'm kidding of course. VOY being "more" Trek then DS9 ever will be in a matter of opinion. I like all of Trek, but yes I like DS9 the best and no, I didn't want VOY to be like DS9. Two completely seperate places.

    Funny you say that VOY is like TNG, because I always saw VOY as the poor man's TNG. :p However, I don't agree that VOY is "richer" in Trek history. In fact, I'd argue it is the opposite. They had little connection to the old Trek because of their...distance from everything we're familiar with (Earth, Klingons, etc). I'd say VOY made its own rich history.

    I didn't say I wanted CG aliens. It wasn't just the aliens that bothered me. It just seemed like the Delta quadrant was a much different place in TNG. I guess I'll fault Q for bringing them to a weird place in the Delta quadrant. :p

    I loved the Equinox story. It was about time VOY encountered another ship. To bad the ship was run by a psychopathic crew. I also didn't say I wanted the Equinox to be in the rest of the series, now did I? I said it would been better if they surprised us and had the Equinox survive just a little bit longer. It was far too predictable that they were destroyed at the end of the two parter. The Equinox turned into a plot device, was swiftly destroyed, then it was back to bussiness as usual. I'm glad you liked it as it was though.

    I agree that the Borg aren't scary perse, but they are powerful. I agree they are stupid in the sense that they never seem to figure out that two Cubes would conquer Earth. Another subject for debate. However, they are powerful and VOY never adquately showed that. The Borg didn't seem like the same group of fearsome aliens from TNG on VOY.

    As for Q, are you telling me you honestly see no difference between TNG/DS9 Q and the one on VOY? His persona changed completely. Q is enigmatic and I'm sure it's hard to say how he normally acts, but he seemed more like benevolent/trickster guardian of Humanity in TNG, while on VOY he seemed like some random alien that was just popping in and dropping his kid off on Janeway while he goes and plays pool with a solar system.

    I addressed this several times already. So I recommend you just look up at this post and see my complaint on it.

    Oh and Janeway couldn't drop them off on any planet as she needed them. The ship needed a certain compliment to be run properly. I think there was even an episode that talked about that. :confused:

    Oh my. I struck a nerve there. I didn't complain about time travel, so much as I complained about the TEMPORAL FEDERATION. I think their inclusion made no sense. I love time travel episodes, all of the Treks did them.

    The last thing on their mind would be that the planet they're heading to, their purpose now in life, was in danger? Really? That's...interesting.

    The shows don't mix at all? Funny, I thought I saw VOY docked at DS9 one time. Funny, I thought the Maquis was from DS9 and was a large part of VOY. Hmm....

    I agree that fanatical fans often get irritated about dumb things. My initial complaint was that the show was meant to show a Starfleet ship, alone in an alien place, desperately trying to get home. However, the ship was always in tip top condition, never ran out of shuttle or torpedoes, and the resources were barely a problem(except in the episodes that needed that to start a plot). I don't care if they had too many shuttles, as they probably simply rebuilt them. The problem is that where is the desperation? If they can rebuild shuttles, make torpedoes, dish out resources, then there is absolutely no desperation...

    Hey, I love VOY just as much as the next guy, but to say that "Endgame" was good is just...wow. It was riddled in plot holes. If Janeway loved her crew so much, why didn't she save them ALL? She went back and saved Chakotay and Seven, while giving the finger to the rest that died. Had she gone back just a few more months, she could have saved poor Carey. I guess he wasn't important enough to her. You know, I would think a fanatical VOY fan like you would hate this episode. It made Janeway look like a moron.

    If I had put only a sentence for each point, people would be misunderstanding me even MORE. Then I'd have to explain what I meant with...you guessed it, paragraphs.
     
  16. Equinox

    Equinox Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Location:
    Delta Quadrant
    ^^^ You argue like I used to! A good read...


    ...but be careful --- mods are very fickle here, that's all I'm saying :)

    I like that you can back up your opinions though so kudos on debating.

    Although here's one last thing to keep in mind when viewing/reading/playing anything. Instead of reviewing or criticizing something based on what YOU WANTED IT TO BE, you should instead base it on WHAT IT WAS.

    Did Voyager have interesting characters? Did the shows all seem indentical or could you see progression as the series moved along? Did the show feel like Treks of old where the good choice is the one worked for despite the odds? Did the show respect established Trek canon when necessary? Did the visuals, techno-babble and environments/settings/sets make you feel like you were in the world of Voyager? Did you see a change in the way characters acted if you compared the first episodes to the later ones? Did the show creators remain true to their vision in the beginning at the end of the show or did they change paths completely at some point? Finally, did the show ADD to TREK positively???

    If you answer all of those questions honestly, I think you'll find Voyager is a far better show than you give it credit for. And if you did that same thing to DS9, ENT or even TNG I'm sure your opinions would change slightly for good or bad because not every show gets all of those things right.

    In my humble opinion though, Voyager comes the closest in all areas.
     
  17. Gamma_Quadrant

    Gamma_Quadrant Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Location:
    Deep Space Nine
    I understand and no worries, I'm not here to anger any mods, nor any VOY fans. ;) Thanks for the warning though.

    I know what you're saying and while VOY is awesome in many ways, making topics on how great it is doesn't stimulate much debate. This wasn't a topic made to unite VOY haters. I was simply pointing out what I felt VOY could have been and see if people agree/disagree. So far, most disagree. :lol:
     
  18. Equinox

    Equinox Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Location:
    Delta Quadrant
    ^^^ Well, where you post topics affects the comments, obviously. I used to go into the ENT forum and try to start topics on how "ENT sucked bad" and no one commented the way I wanted or even at all. So what did I learn?

    If you wanna start a somewhat controversial discussion, DON'T pick the area where the most passionate people FOR that topic are! :)
     
  19. Gadrin

    Gadrin Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Location:
    Delta Quadrant
    I thought it was simply to bring that chapter or that part of the Trek story to a close.

    Later on when Chakotay finds they're all dead it hits him hard (and a few of the others) but really it's a speed bump in the overall Voyager saga.

    I'm glad they didn't just keep revisiting TNG or DS9 plots and themes over and over. The only exception might be the Doctor & Data, that got tiresome after a while. I never quite understood how the limited Holographic Doctor grew to be a major character. Basically it should have made Starfleet history or Daystrom-level prize for what's-his-bald-spot...er, Zimmerman. ;)

    Of course Trek is big on "cornball-isms". I can watch Enterprise DVDs, stuff I barely remember and can easily tell you what certain lines will be, because it's cornball stuff to the max. I'll find out with my next Voyager go-round how corny its dialog is.

    What I liked about Voyager was the non-formula shows like:

    Muse
    Body & Soul
    Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy

    where it wasn't just the usual, but they trod on new ground.
     
  20. Gamma_Quadrant

    Gamma_Quadrant Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Location:
    Deep Space Nine
    Yeah, but I can't make a post about VOY in say...TNG section, can I? Wouldn't that not be the proper section? Not to mention, I don't mind the disagreements. I did this to stir a debate. It's fun and interesting. Already, people changed my mind on two subjects.