In The 24th Century, How Did They Do It?

Nightdiamond · Mar 18, 2012

According to Trek in the 23rd-24th centuries, humans have solved almost all most of our modern problems. They have eliminated poverty. Everybody gets along. There is no sexism. No Crime. No racism at all. People don't get sick.

"A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions."

It's a complete Utopia. But they've never really explained exactly how they did it.

Does anyone even think it is really possible? Is it possible doing it Trek's way, or is it too unrealistic?

Is it a weird communist society as some claim? Can it be done without religion the way Gene claimed? Do we need a certain political ideology to make it happen?

How did they do it?

sojourner · Mar 19, 2012

"imagine all the people livin' life in peace"

123wrotgirly · Mar 19, 2012

They suffered a total destruction of earth with their nuclear war in the mid 21st century. They rebuilt it from there. I wonder if without that sort of event a utopia is truly possible here.

Augustus · Mar 19, 2012

More than any specific ideology or political structure, I think that kind of society is only possible if every person, or at least the vast, vast majority of people choose to live that way each generation.

In Star Trek, humans have basically eliminated all serious forms of interpersonal problems. The rest, war, disease, hunger, etc only comes AFTER the conscience choice of the whole race to behave a certain way towards everyone else.

So is it possible? sure, but everyone would have to decide that is the way they want to live.

The Castellan · Mar 19, 2012

Because mankind finally grew up, especially after meeting alien life more advanced then they were, and realized the petty stuff they were all fighting and competing over all amount to nothing, and all that nothing nearly wiped out humanity and the survivors went, "I think it's time to change things, finally." And the help with the Vulcans probably made it easier. Also, I can see them putting a lot more limits of those in positions of authority.

Nightdiamond · Mar 19, 2012

So what about what some of things scientists are now saying--that a lot of our behaviors are genetic, things we inherited from cave men?

Before, when it was thought that most behaviors were from social programming, it might have been easier to change them.

But if it's all hardwired, won't that mean some changes are damn near impossible?

I mean Trek is saying that ALL humans have changed . So go to earth and you find that every single human being is polite, open minded, friendly people with no social hangups we find today.

Is that truly believable/realistic?

Caesar753 · Mar 19, 2012

I think it was a combination of societal collapse, due to WWIII, and first contact. Human kind was decimated during WWIII and society was trying to rebuilt in the aftermath. As humans were rebuilding their world, contact with the Vulcans was made. This monumental event changed the perspective of human kind, who now knew they weren't alone in the universe. Biases against race, religion, sex, etc. were made irrelevant in the face of a galaxy full of different life forms. Instead of fighting among themselves, they realized that they were all human and should work together.

Shawnster · Mar 19, 2012

Nightdiamond said:
According to Trek in the 23rd-24th centuries, humans have solved almost all most of our modern problems. They have eliminated poverty. Everybody gets along. There is no sexism. No Crime. No racism at all. People don't get sick.

"A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions."

Click to expand...

It's a complete Utopia. But they've never really explained exactly how they did it.

Does anyone even think it is really possible? Is it possible doing it Trek's way, or is it too unrealistic?

Is it a weird communist society as some claim? Can it be done without religion the way Gene claimed? Do we need a certain political ideology to make it happen?

How did they do it?

Not only is it possible, I believe it will happen. It just won't happen the way it's depicted in Trek. For one thing, Star Trek never really addresses HOW it's accomplished. Yes, there's a global war and humanity rebuilds after that, but that's not an explanation. That's just a statement of chronology.

Even statements along the lines of "mankind finally 'grows up'" are too broad of strokes. You see, a lot of man's problems and woes are brought about by HIS OWN greed and short sightedness. It's a heart condition. As long as greedy, selfish people exist then there will be haves vs. have nots. As long as man continues to dominate his fellow man to his injury, there will continue to be war and oppression.

Only by addressing the root cause of humanity's woes can a solution truly be found. And the root cause isn't poverty, it isn't lack of education and it isn't opportunity. The root cause is the desire of man to dominate his fellow man.

Augustus · Mar 19, 2012

Shawnster said:
Only by addressing the root cause of humanity's woes can a solution truly be found. And the root cause isn't poverty, it isn't lack of education and it isn't opportunity. The root cause is the desire of man to dominate his fellow man.

I agree. This is essentially what I said in my post. Only in a change of behavior and attitude towards others will a world like this actually come about.

T'Girl · Mar 19, 2012

sojourner said:
"imagine all the people livin' life in peace"

"Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can."

Given that John Lennon was a multimillionaire in 1971, when "Imagine" was released, I wonder if he personally could?

Nightdiamond said:
There is no sexism. No Crime. No racism at all. People don't get sick.

Sexism certainly persisted through to the 24th century. If you look at what we have today, vs the example of the 23rd century displayed in TOS, things will at some point actually get worst.

Gays have completely disappeared, in the Human community there are (based on what is seen) plenty of heterosexuals, no gays period.

Sicknesses have might changed, but also are still with us.

Racism isn't evident, a positive move forward.

Bashir's father and Tom Paris are examples of criminals. How much crime does a culture have to have, before it establishs penal colonies? Starfleet does have stockades.

People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'.

Not quite the same thing as "People no longer accumulation things."

It's a complete Utopia.

Utopia is different for different people. What do you do with those don't follow the program? Shipped to the colonies?

Can it be done without religion the way Gene claimed?

Religious suppression would seem to be against the ideals of the Utopian future of the Federation, but religious persecution might be one way of accomplishing "imagine no religion."

Shawnster said:
Only by addressing the root cause of humanity's woes can a solution truly be found. And the root cause isn't poverty, it isn't lack of education and it isn't opportunity. The root cause is the desire of man to dominate his fellow man.

I would disagree concerning education.

A good place to start a change in society is to educate people on how to achieve the maximum amount of personal freedom possible for a individual. Another forward step is when it comes to "leaders" and "people in power." A understanding needs to be engendered in the general populace, through education, that these people need to be kept on the shortest of leashes. And that Presidents and Prime Ministers are nothing but the hired help.

A well educated populace, is in a much better position to monitor it's leaders, and provided them with instruct on what they'll be allowed to do in any given circumstances. Anytime a leader can honesty say, "this is too complex for you to understand," you have tyranny.

A ignorant slave with a replicator, is still a ignorant slave.

7thsealord · Mar 19, 2012

I think most of us here (myself included) probably take the Western or Western-leaning lifestyle more or less for granted. For a very big chunk of history, the majority of humans spent their entire lives scratching out a subsistance living. Often enough, this was probaby done whilst also nervously keeping an eye out for barbarian invaders and/or tax collectors.

Could possibly argued that the gap between then and now is considerably greater than the one between now and the 24th century.

scotpens · Mar 19, 2012

Nightdiamond said:
I mean Trek is saying that ALL humans have changed . So go to earth and you find that every single human being is polite, open minded, friendly people with no social hangups we find today.

Is that truly believable/realistic?

About as believable and realistic as warp drive, transporters, replicators, and aliens with funny foreheads.

Hey, that’s why they call it science fiction.

ZJulian · Mar 19, 2012

I'd say it was the result of something pretty terrible. There's been bursts of mass and voluntary social-experimentation in the past here on Earth, usually out of the ashes of some kind of tragic event or revolution.

I don't think it's necessarily a utopia but a lot of our behavior is only wired into us through conditioning and a fledgling society built from the rubble of an old order's collapse would have new precepts on how life is generally lived.

Obviously there are still jerks, it's just not on a systemic level.

Nightdiamond · Mar 19, 2012

scotpens said:
About as believable and realistic as warp drive, transporters, replicators, and aliens with funny foreheads.

Hey, that’s why they call it science fiction.

Interesting..

Not only is it possible, I believe it will happen. It just won't happen the way it's depicted in Trek. For one thing, Star Trek never really addresses HOW it's accomplished. Yes, there's a global war and humanity rebuilds after that, but that's not an explanation. That's just a statement of chronology.

If our behaviors are genetically based, as some scientist are suggesting, then theoretically, our dysfunctional behavior will persist. A devastating war might not change anything.

Or what about when some episodes where it is said we "evolved" out our bad behaviors?

I wonder if they are being literal-- that human brains in the 23-24th century are actually different than they are now..

F. King Daniel · Mar 19, 2012

From what we saw in First Contact and then Enterprise, the Vulcans came and "helped" for 100 years.

As for why everyone's so "evolved" and "nice", they put something in the water

Relayer1 · Mar 19, 2012

Effectively limitless power and abundance of resources would avoid any need for damaging competition.

WWIII could have had a major change in peoples psyche leading to a genuine desire for co-operation and peace.

First Contact could have changed our worldview to the extent where humans begin to view themselves as all one people.

I still think that innate human ambition and greed would pose problems, but overwhelming peer pressure growing up in this new environment would serve to limit this and end the exploitation of the majority by a powerful few.

Augustus · Mar 19, 2012

Nightdiamond said:
If our behaviors are genetically based, as some scientist are suggesting, then theoretically, our dysfunctional behavior will persist. A devastating war might not change anything.

Or what about when some episodes where it is said we "evolved" out our bad behaviors?

I wonder if they are being literal-- that human brains in the 23-24th century are actually different than they are now..

I am not sure where y'all are getting this. All the research I have seen says that our natural and learned behaviors and attitudes are conquerable. Sure, I might have a strong disposition toward anger, but that doesn't mean that I can't overcome it with deliberate practice. I feel that that is what life is essentially about: improving how you treat others and overcoming weaknesses.

The human brains of later centuries might be more evolved, only because they and their ancestors choose to live a higher way.

For this reason, I think religion has to be involved in such a change. Not the kind of religion you see play out in today's political scene. But the kind of religion that calls us to a higher purpose and a sense that other people should be treated a certain way.

ZJulian · Mar 19, 2012

Nightdiamond said:
scotpens said:

About as believable and realistic as warp drive, transporters, replicators, and aliens with funny foreheads.

Hey, that’s why they call it science fiction.

Click to expand...

Interesting..

Not only is it possible, I believe it will happen. It just won't happen the way it's depicted in Trek. For one thing, Star Trek never really addresses HOW it's accomplished. Yes, there's a global war and humanity rebuilds after that, but that's not an explanation. That's just a statement of chronology.

Click to expand...

If our behaviors are genetically based, as some scientist are suggesting, then theoretically, our dysfunctional behavior will persist. A devastating war might not change anything.

Or what about when some episodes where it is said we "evolved" out our bad behaviors?

I wonder if they are being literal-- that human brains in the 23-24th century are actually different than they are now..

EvoPsych has become kind of a laughing stock in academic circles in the past couple of years. Even so, behaviors being genetically mapped is no excuse for a lot of the atrocities that plague the human race and there's no reason to think that people won't try some day.

Greg Cox · Mar 19, 2012

Well, when a space captain and an alien priestess love each other very much . . . oh, that's not what you meant by "do it"?

Seriously, people are confusing "optimistic" with "utopian." Trek, especially TOS, was never meant to be utopian. There are still personality conflicts, rare alien diseases, broken hearts, family problems, crime, etc. It's just that, in the more civilized quarters of the Federation, things seems to be better than they are today. Not perfect, better.

Just look at the episodes: the crews are constantly having to deal with alien disease outbreaks, impending civil wars, diplomatic crises, sabotage, famine, estranged family members, and even the occasional murder mystery.

"Captain's log. A mysterious plague has wiped out the crops on Vega Omicron V, a distant colony that has been waging war against Brewster's Planet for over 10,000 years. In the meantime, Ensign Chekov has been poisoned and we have reason to believe that there is a traitor aboard . . . ."

Does that sound like utopia?

indolover · Mar 19, 2012

Trek is certainly optimistic, that cannot be IMO disputed.

But is it realistic? Does it matter? It is art, not reality. No artistic has to mirror reality wholly. If anything, the point of art is to abstract from reality and be purely imaginative.

In The 24th Century, How Did They Do It?

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