Quick continuity question regarding AotF and Lore

Thrawn · Jan 18, 2009

So, there's a big argument in Articles over whether B4 should be allowed to be dismantled and studied, since he's the last Soong-type android to exist. I'm looking at the Memory Alpha and Beta articles on Lore, and they all say he was deactivated and dismantled, but nothing more, and I honestly can't remember - was he beamed into space or something? Is there some reason that Lore's parts no longer exist and can't be studied? Or do they just not want to study him because he's evil or something?

I'm sure I'm just forgetting something here, but I found this odd.

Haval_Runa · Jan 18, 2009

The last time we saw Lore, he was disassembled in the Enterprise-D's engineering section. It stands to reason he may still have been there when the stardrive section of the Enterprise was destroyed in Generations. In that case, considering his proximity to an exploding warp core, I doubt there would be anything identifiable remaining of him (and that would have fallen into Viridian III's gravitational pull and burned up anyway).

William Leisner · Jan 18, 2009

Lore was deactivated by Data at the end of "Descent, Part II," and Data retrieved the emotion chip from him. I'm not sure if it was ever explained what happened to his parts after that; I seem to recall some story somewhere along the line claiming his parts were damaged/destroyed at Veridian III, but I can't swear to that.

Thrawn · Jan 18, 2009

The actual quote in the book is "Lore's positronic brain was destroyed about a year after he was deactivated in the Delta Quadrant". So if that's referring to him being deactivated in Descent, then Haval, the timing works out about right.

But I don't remember Descent taking place in the Delta Quadrant...though admittedly it's been a while.

William Leisner · Jan 18, 2009

Thrawn said:
But I don't remember Descent taking place in the Delta Quadrant...though admittedly it's been a while.

The Enterprise was at the far end of one of the Borg's transwarp conduit at the time. I don't recall it specifically stated they were in the DQ, either, but it's certainly possible -- perhaps even probable.

Thrawn · Jan 18, 2009

William Leisner said:
Thrawn said:

But I don't remember Descent taking place in the Delta Quadrant...though admittedly it's been a while.

Click to expand...

The Enterprise was at the far end of one of the Borg's transwarp conduit at the time. I don't recall it specifically stated they were in the DQ, either, but it's certainly possible -- perhaps even probable.

Ok, fair enough.

Thanks for the help.

Oh, and by the way, hilarious signature. :lol:

DGCatAniSiri · Jan 18, 2009

I seem to recall 'Immortal Coil' addressing what became of Lore's remains following Descent - Data had a section of one of the Enterprise labs as a sort of 'family burial plot' for his 'brothers' that he'd uncovered that he placed his 'mother's' body in after her 'death.'

The Grim Ghost · Jan 18, 2009

Haval_Runa said:
The last time we saw Lore, he was disassembled in the Enterprise-D's engineering section. It stands to reason he may still have been there when the stardrive section of the Enterprise was destroyed in Generations. In that case, considering his proximity to an exploding warp core, I doubt there would be anything identifiable remaining of him (and that would have fallen into Viridian III's gravitational pull and burned up anyway).

Starfleet seemed extremely interested in examining a Soong type android, I don't believe that Lore's parts would have been left just lying around on the Enterprise.. Definitely something that should be looked into.

Paris · Jan 19, 2009

We should be able to reason that Data would have let the Daystrom Institue, or some similar group, have some of the pieces of Lore for study. You would have to reason that Starfleet would probably even order Data to let them have Lore, as he is a security risk for a starship to have onboard.

Therin of Andor · Jan 19, 2009

Paris said:
You would have to reason that Starfleet would probably even order Data to let them have Lore, as he is a security risk for a starship to have onboard.

How is being disassembled a security risk? Lore was disassembled on the colony world for over 26 years, IIRC. He's not a security risk until someone takes him out of Data's lab and reassembles him. But yeah, the novels established that Lore's parts were destroyed offscreen in "Generations".

Paris · Jan 19, 2009

Therin of Andor said:
Paris said:

You would have to reason that Starfleet would probably even order Data to let them have Lore, as he is a security risk for a starship to have onboard.

Click to expand...

How is being disassembled a security risk? Lore was disassembled on the colony world for over 26 years, IIRC. He's not a security risk until someone takes him out of Data's lab and reassembles him. But yeah, the novels established that Lore's parts were destroyed offscreen in "Generations".

Oh. Okay. Which novel established this?...just wondering

KRAD · Jan 19, 2009

That Lore was destroyed when the Enterprise-D crashed was indeed established in Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang.

The Grim Ghost · Jan 19, 2009

KRAD said:
That Lore was destroyed when the Enterprise-D crashed was indeed established in Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang.

Getting disassembled and then being blown apart offscreen..and OFFPAGE!

What a huge waste of an interesting character. :rolleyes:

It also makes Data, Picard etc... look like a bunch of hypocrites. Lore was evil and insane yes, but they have no problem basically ending his life with no apparent inclination to do ANYTHING with him, after all of their arguments about Data deserving rights and being a lifeform.

Christopher · Jan 19, 2009

^^Well, to be fair, disassembling Lore doesn't kill him, it just puts him in "hibernation" until he's put together again. Picard and Data had no way of knowing he'd be destroyed in the crash of the ship. (Well, aside from knowing that there was always a risk to the ship and its occupants. But there are risks anywhere.)

The Grim Ghost · Jan 19, 2009

^ True. I meant that they disassembled and left someone they they both passionately considered to be a lifeform in a death like sleep. No matter how dangerous he was, if they truly believed he was alive he should have simply been imprisoned. Major rights violation, like permanently putting a human into stasis or something (if that wasn't dangerous).

William Leisner · Jan 19, 2009

destro said:
^ True. I meant that they disassembled and left someone they they both passionately considered to be a lifeform in a death like sleep. No matter how dangerous he was, if they truly believed he was alive he should have simply been imprisoned. Major rights violation, like permanently putting a human into stasis or something (if that wasn't dangerous).

I think you just hit the nail on the head there: it would be potentially dangerous to put an organic lifeform into perpetual stasis (although we've never really gotten a full picture of the risks of long-term stasis) or into an artificially induced coma or whatnot. But for Lore, the "off" switch is built right in; it would be a pretty hard sell in any court, I think, to argue it was against Lore's rights to be turned off when his creator equipped him with the ability to be turned off without any harmful effects.

Stevil2001 · Jan 19, 2009

I don't buy it. Would it not be a violation of Data's rights to turn him off permamently?

This is an interesting question; I'd never thought of it before. It reminds me of Brave New World, where Data keeps on saying that Lore is malfunctioning-- but it seems to be just because he holds a differing perspective-- and then they "fix" him. A bit creepy.

Trent Roman · Jan 19, 2009

I had never thought of it before, but Destro brings up a good point. If this had been a flesh and blood individual, he would have been detained, brought to trial and sentenced to howsoever long it would take for that individual to be rehabilitated. Instead, he was summarily switched off; no trial, no legal defence, and of course being 'off' means you can't experience anything, which runs counter a rehabilitation-based penal system. Lore was treated like a malfunctioning machine rather than a sentient individual who happened to be an android, tucked away indefinitely--he got 'enemy combant-ed', essentially.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Therin of Andor · Jan 19, 2009

Trent Roman said:
Lore was treated like a malfunctioning machine rather than a sentient individual who happened to be an android, tucked away indefinitely--he got 'enemy combant-ed', essentially.

Unless Data told him he'd probably be standing trial and Lore preferred to be disassembled, ie. returned to the state he was when found in "Datalore".

William Leisner · Jan 19, 2009

Well, let's see. Lore allegedly brought the Crystaline Entity to Omicron Theta to eat up the entire colony. He then tried to feed the entire Enterprise crew to the Entity. (And he would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for that meddling kid!) He then gained control over a group of Borg and directed their attacks on several Federation colonies. He also performed a potentially brain-damaging experiment on Geordi, and on top of it all, may have offed a couple of Pakleds. Was Data within his rights, as a duly sworn Starfleet officer, to do whatever he deemed necessary to keep this individual from doing more harm to Federation citizens?

The question, I suppose, is when does temporary restraint become long-term/permanent "imprisonment" without due process. And yes, it is a quite intriguing question as to why Data, to the best of our knowledge, never advocated for a fair trial for his brother.

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