The dialogue states that the systems were obsolete and undermanned, I don't recall them saying that they were neglected for 75 years.
Federation/SFC: Post Dominion War
- Thread starter Photon
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The dialogue states that the systems were obsolete and undermanned, I don't recall them saying that they were neglected for 75 years.
Right. All that was said was that Betazed's own defenses (be they ships or fortifications) were "obsolete" and "undermanned".
Basically everything built before the war would be obsolete, unless and until it was upgraded with the sort of shields that can withstand phased polaron beams. Even two-year-old orbital forts would fall in this category.
As for the 10th Fleet, it was tasked with defending Betazed and its outlying colonies. Whether that means defending a single star system or dozens of far-flung systems is unknown. It would be pretty stupid to stick an entire fleet in just a single system, though - especially when it was made clear that nobody thought Betazed would be in a particularly threatened position.
Timo Saloniemi
Basically everything built before the war would be obsolete, unless and until it was upgraded with the sort of shields that can withstand phased polaron beams. Even two-year-old orbital forts would fall in this category.
As for the 10th Fleet, it was tasked with defending Betazed and its outlying colonies. Whether that means defending a single star system or dozens of far-flung systems is unknown. It would be pretty stupid to stick an entire fleet in just a single system, though - especially when it was made clear that nobody thought Betazed would be in a particularly threatened position.
Timo Saloniemi
My bad about the 'decades' bit.
Still, it could also mean that the platforms in question were left as they were since Kirk's era.
After all, if the dialog doesn't give us an approximation, then it's a wide range for speculation (and both of us could essentially be correct).
Also, it's possible that since Betazed is relatively deep in Federation space is why no one really bothered with the upgrades prior to the war and could have been just as well left outdated for decades.
But ... since SF was so much concerned about a possible invasion of Earth when Sisko recommended to take several fleets for recapturing DS9, I find it strange that SF was not that worried about other systems in the Federation.
The dialog stated the fleet in charge for the protection of Betazed was caught off guard.
Since they were in training (combat at that), you would expect them to be ready for a possible incursion by the Dominion as that could be an ideal time to strike.
With the ability to detect them at ly's away (even if it was even 1 or 5) it would give them more than enough time to stop the training and prepare for the invasion.
One of the main issues with the attack was that it came through the Kalandra sector, which Starfleet deemed too far from Dominion supply lines to be a viable staging grounds/route for the Dominion to use. The Tenth might not have put any or not enough effort into monitoring those approaches and by the time they find out the Dominion fleet is on its way might have been when Betazed's planetary defences detected the fleet dropping out of warp.
To borrow a term from American history, I believe that post Dominion War the Federation would enter an austere period of Reconstruction. A post scarcity economy would no longer be post scarcity, with resources being stretched thin in a devastated environment. Few resources would be available for research and development, or for exploration (in the Titan novels I believe that only a handful of ships were available for such).
Even if the other Founders do not accept the surrender there's not much they could do anymore. They know they can't send more ships through the wormhole and they don't have a war capable force left in the AQ.
Something between A and B. It's pretty clear that before Q Who the Federation was naive and genuinely believed any foreign power could be handled through diplomacy.
The Federation probably stayed war-ready though they de-mobilized their warships. They learned from the Borg and the Dominion that there are threats out there they need to be able to deal with. So they probably went back to their old exploration ways, just this time they're not naive and they're well enough armed to defend themselves if need be.
Though I always thought it'd be interesting if there was a series where after the Dominion War the Federation changed its philosophy out of fear and an Admiral Lleyton type came to power because everybody was scared, and then there was a fight to return the Federation to its philosophical roots.
@Tim Walker
I think a better parallel in American History is 2001.
Something between A and B. It's pretty clear that before Q Who the Federation was naive and genuinely believed any foreign power could be handled through diplomacy.
The Federation probably stayed war-ready though they de-mobilized their warships. They learned from the Borg and the Dominion that there are threats out there they need to be able to deal with. So they probably went back to their old exploration ways, just this time they're not naive and they're well enough armed to defend themselves if need be.
Though I always thought it'd be interesting if there was a series where after the Dominion War the Federation changed its philosophy out of fear and an Admiral Lleyton type came to power because everybody was scared, and then there was a fight to return the Federation to its philosophical roots.
@Tim Walker
I think a better parallel in American History is 2001.
We know they pulled a lot of ships back to Earth by the time Voyager returned home only a few years after the war, and that task forces could be created rather quickly just a year or two after that. (there were a lot of Galaxy-class starships at Earth when Voyager returned home).
Interesting comments regarding Leyton, JirinPanthosa-that could have been a Point of Departure for an alternative timeline.
The shock of September 11th may have been comparable to the Borg incursion/Wolf battle.
Ithekro, do you think that trauma would have replaced an expansive mood with a mood of caution, and resulted in a drawing back from the larger universe?
The shock of September 11th may have been comparable to the Borg incursion/Wolf battle.
Ithekro, do you think that trauma would have replaced an expansive mood with a mood of caution, and resulted in a drawing back from the larger universe?
Why wouldn't the Cold War paradigm dominate instead? A war economy, after experiencing a brief recession, returns to high levels of production both of consumer goods and military goods, bolstered by the weaknesses of other economies and favorable credit balances.
Or how about the post-Persian War paradigm?
Or how about the post-Napoleonic Wars paradigm?
Lots of things to choose from that don't necessary lead to the victors licking their wounds, but enjoying decades of economic, if not political, dominance.
I would choose option B. Go back to a moderate degree of ship building. What kind of vessels, though? Perhaps a smaller utility craft, to serve as the backbone of the fleet.
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Unknown. The Dominion War had ended at least two years prior to Voyager's surprise return home. They didn't have much time to set up an anti-Borg defense, yet they had 27 ships able to reach near Sol Space in a very short period of time. This includes USS Prometheus, 2 Defiants, 3 Nebulas, 7 Galaxys and the usual mix of Excelsiors, Mirandas, and other newer ships. That's a lot of Galaxy-class ships.
Are they new ships having been built to replace losses of the last five years? Are they all there to get system refits to make them Explorers again rather than the rush job combat ships of the war? I don't know.
Of course, if you think about American history, what else was going on during Reconstruction? There was a frontier. I can imagine a sort of Wild West atmosphere taking hold just beyond Federation space, in a region surveyed by Star Fleet. Perhaps there are mineral rich planets, or planets with good farming. Magnets for refugees, who other wise lack good projects.
Somebody will point out that that sounds like Serenity/Firefly. Yes, but with warp drive.
Beyond the Wild West zone...unexplored space, where one may boldly go.....
I believe Picard once made a reference to "The Fringe." Perhaps that would be a good term.
Somebody will point out that that sounds like Serenity/Firefly. Yes, but with warp drive.
Beyond the Wild West zone...unexplored space, where one may boldly go.....
I believe Picard once made a reference to "The Fringe." Perhaps that would be a good term.
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Star Trek cartography site, http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/federation.htm. As a middle power squeezed between other powers, the Federation would have an incentive to explore those regions still open to it, before being claimed by other powers.
The core of the Federation might be compared to ancient civilizations that have suffered devastation. The ancient Hittite "middle kingdom" period was a crap sack century, though eventually this was followed by a brilliant/expansive period. The Roman Empire was ravaged by barbarians late in its career (Attila the Hun was the "scourge of God"). Ancient Egypt had a bad period which featured invasion by the Hyksos, though eventually the country recovered.
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Meanwhile, out there, where no man has gone before.....
Preserver planets. The remains of Iconian, First Federation, and Tkon bases. Perhaps a slave colony planted by Skags or Briori. Maybe even a wormhole.
Somewhat similar, come to think of it, to Stargate SG-1.
Preserver planets. The remains of Iconian, First Federation, and Tkon bases. Perhaps a slave colony planted by Skags or Briori. Maybe even a wormhole.
Somewhat similar, come to think of it, to Stargate SG-1.
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I have to agree that it's really not clear what the baseline of SF is supposed to be. The assumption that not building many ships is 'normal' doesn't have any canon basis that I can think of. Given the fact that it seems perfectly normal for every govt. to have a significantly sized fleet, and the fact that space is huge, the Federation is huge and Starfleet is significantly more interested in exploration than most other fleets seem to be, it seems a perfectly reasonable interpretation to say that 'normal' levels for SF could still put it as one of the largest fleets in the (known) AQ.
I also have to agree that just assuming we must be on the brink of 'lasting peace' is a very bad assumption. The Dominion was defeated in the AQ, not in the GQ. They still have a huge empire, possibly as big as or bigger than the Federation. The Borg certainly will not have given up their ways, either. And the Voyager's return just brought massive propulsion advances back to the AQ, which means exploration missions in the near future will strike out much farther then they've ever been able to before. The last time exploration made that kind of leap forward (with the discovery of the wormhole) the Federation wound up at war with a massive and technologically superior empire in just a few short years... (Also, canon would seem to suggest that the very first time humans struck out into the Galaxy was so disastrous it led to almost two centuries of hot/cold war with the Klingons.)
They said that, but it's fairly obvious they didn't actually mean it. First of all, they had no problem tossing Odo aside by making him a solid.
More importantly, if that were really, truly the case then they easily could have had Odo just by giving up the AQ. If the female changeling had said 'Come back to the Link permanently and we will never set foot in the Alpha Quadrant again.' then Odo would have jumped at the chance to end the war. She never even tried. And she repeatedly alienated him in order to further the war effort. She wanted him, yes, but she wanted the war more. The Link was too paranoid to ever allow anything to get in the way of their 'necessary protection' (read: need to control everything and everyone). Even if that meant never getting Odo back.
I don't see anywhere where it's at all written in stone that they can't send ships through the wormhole anymore. Sisko convinced the Prophets to intervene once, but we have no idea exactly where Sisko is now, and if the Prophets are left to their own devices they almost always tend towards inaction. Sure, the Dominion would be hesitant about it, since they presumably don't know what happened to that fleet, but if they decided to try again, there's no guarantee they would fail.
More importantly - the Federation has major treaties with other Gamma Quadrant peoples and presumably intends to resume their normal exploration efforts, as well. There doesn't have to be any Dominion fleet coming through the wormhole for the Federation to wind up at war with them a second time. It could wind up being Federation fleets fighting in the Gamma Quadrant this time. But with the first war still fresh in the mind, I imagine a lot of Starfleet would still be in that fighting for your life mindset, trapped in bad memories of what happened when the Dominion was able to come through the wormhole, maybe even pushing the escalation of the conflict in the desperate conviction that the Federation *must* maintain a buffer on the other side of the wormhole in order to guarantee that no Dominion fleet will ever reach the AQ again. (After all, Starfleet doesn't really believe in the Prophets, either, so the destruction of the Dominion reinforcements is probably remembered as an inexplicable anomaly that can't be counted on again.)
I also have to agree that just assuming we must be on the brink of 'lasting peace' is a very bad assumption. The Dominion was defeated in the AQ, not in the GQ. They still have a huge empire, possibly as big as or bigger than the Federation. The Borg certainly will not have given up their ways, either. And the Voyager's return just brought massive propulsion advances back to the AQ, which means exploration missions in the near future will strike out much farther then they've ever been able to before. The last time exploration made that kind of leap forward (with the discovery of the wormhole) the Federation wound up at war with a massive and technologically superior empire in just a few short years... (Also, canon would seem to suggest that the very first time humans struck out into the Galaxy was so disastrous it led to almost two centuries of hot/cold war with the Klingons.)
They said that, but it's fairly obvious they didn't actually mean it. First of all, they had no problem tossing Odo aside by making him a solid.
More importantly, if that were really, truly the case then they easily could have had Odo just by giving up the AQ. If the female changeling had said 'Come back to the Link permanently and we will never set foot in the Alpha Quadrant again.' then Odo would have jumped at the chance to end the war. She never even tried. And she repeatedly alienated him in order to further the war effort. She wanted him, yes, but she wanted the war more. The Link was too paranoid to ever allow anything to get in the way of their 'necessary protection' (read: need to control everything and everyone). Even if that meant never getting Odo back.
I don't see anywhere where it's at all written in stone that they can't send ships through the wormhole anymore. Sisko convinced the Prophets to intervene once, but we have no idea exactly where Sisko is now, and if the Prophets are left to their own devices they almost always tend towards inaction. Sure, the Dominion would be hesitant about it, since they presumably don't know what happened to that fleet, but if they decided to try again, there's no guarantee they would fail.
More importantly - the Federation has major treaties with other Gamma Quadrant peoples and presumably intends to resume their normal exploration efforts, as well. There doesn't have to be any Dominion fleet coming through the wormhole for the Federation to wind up at war with them a second time. It could wind up being Federation fleets fighting in the Gamma Quadrant this time. But with the first war still fresh in the mind, I imagine a lot of Starfleet would still be in that fighting for your life mindset, trapped in bad memories of what happened when the Dominion was able to come through the wormhole, maybe even pushing the escalation of the conflict in the desperate conviction that the Federation *must* maintain a buffer on the other side of the wormhole in order to guarantee that no Dominion fleet will ever reach the AQ again. (After all, Starfleet doesn't really believe in the Prophets, either, so the destruction of the Dominion reinforcements is probably remembered as an inexplicable anomaly that can't be counted on again.)
It's also implied though that the reason the Founders try to exert complete control over people is that out of experience they think if they don't, the solids will come and kill them. When Odo was sent out as an infant it was for the purpose of determining threats by learning how they treat a defenseless changeling. When Odo returned to the link he fulfilled that exact purpose, he taught them that he was treated very well and that the Federation does not practice military expansionism. (Only diplomatic expansionism)
This knowledge tames the Dominion's primary motive for invading the alpha quadrant, as pre-emptive neutralization of a threat. Also it's not established exactly what the terms of the treaty are but they must involve not violating Dominion territory without permission. The Federation will go out of their way even to their own strategic disadvantage to avoid war, they certainly wouldn't start exploring the GQ again unless they were sure they had permission.
And even if the prophets would not intervene a second time, do you think the Dominion would risk just sending a huge fleet through not knowing whether or not it will be vanished again? Also if the Federation detected any sort of ship movements toward the wormhole they can deploy mines again whenever they want. The Dominion's MO has always been to think long term and as risk averse as possible, they're not going to risk just sending a giant fleet through without guarantees of a foothold. If anything they would spend a couple hundred years rebuilding their forces then seed a few spies around and wait until the Federation is weakened by other threats and pick their opportunity. It's not like any Federation power would make any kind of treaty with the Dominion ever again after seeing what happened to Cardassia.
This knowledge tames the Dominion's primary motive for invading the alpha quadrant, as pre-emptive neutralization of a threat. Also it's not established exactly what the terms of the treaty are but they must involve not violating Dominion territory without permission. The Federation will go out of their way even to their own strategic disadvantage to avoid war, they certainly wouldn't start exploring the GQ again unless they were sure they had permission.
And even if the prophets would not intervene a second time, do you think the Dominion would risk just sending a huge fleet through not knowing whether or not it will be vanished again? Also if the Federation detected any sort of ship movements toward the wormhole they can deploy mines again whenever they want. The Dominion's MO has always been to think long term and as risk averse as possible, they're not going to risk just sending a giant fleet through without guarantees of a foothold. If anything they would spend a couple hundred years rebuilding their forces then seed a few spies around and wait until the Federation is weakened by other threats and pick their opportunity. It's not like any Federation power would make any kind of treaty with the Dominion ever again after seeing what happened to Cardassia.
I think the Federation would feel burned by its venture into the GQ. If Star Fleet resumed exploration, I think it would be along the fringes of the Federation, not on the other side of the worm hole.
I think the feds will continue high rate of production. I mean hell why not. The dominion war and the Borg have prove n the federation an adversary is always waiting. They can easily afford it with their Utopian idea. I bet the federation at any given time has a good 50 million personal they can use in a pinch to man those vessels whats the federation estimate population like trillions anyway? Just pull a US navy and put them in mothball till needed or man them with skeleton crews to "explore."
I believe that capital ships are resource intensive. In a period of resource scarcity, I think shipbuilding efforts would turn to smaller, utilitarian designs.
