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Federation/SFC: Post Dominion War

Photon

Commodore
Commodore
What should they do post Dom War (and Reman incidient)?

A-Continue to build ships at (near) war production and stay on a war footing b/c ya never know what will happen

B-Scale back to pre Dominion encounter/pre-Borg production and introduce new ships as need be to keep down costs and perhaps a lil more exploring of the Alpha Q.

C-Go into a total peace-time footing. Plan no more warships, decom older warships because it looks like an extended period of peace in our time. Seemingly the Romulans aren't enemies anymore, the Klingons are our buds, the Doms are quelled and of course the Borg is outta commision for a good, long time.
 
I believe The Great Link will overthrow Odo very quickly and be coming back very shortly for round II. I believe they will not accept the female Founder's surrender on grounds that she had gone insane, therefore they will declare it null and void.

Therefore the Feds should keep up war production standards.
 
I believe The Great Link will overthrow Odo very quickly and be coming back very shortly for round II. I believe they will not accept the female Founder's surrender on grounds that she had gone insane, therefore they will declare it null and void.

Therefore the Feds should keep up war production standards.
I hope so
 
I would say keep up A for a few years until they can replace all the old Miranda class starships with new ones. Also It would be wise to either refit or retire the old excelsior class starships along with any constellation, or centaur classes that weren't destroyed in the war. If peace lasts until this is done then scale it back to somewhere between B and A.
 
In the Star Trek universe, where so much of the galaxy is unexplored (to say nothing of other galaxies) and there's so much potential for unknown threats, option C would be kinda stupid.

On the other extreme, A would just make everyone else wary and be more likely to provoke a war.

B seems the most reasonable. Keep up a strong fleet for deterrance, and just in case yet another one of those unknown threats turns up, without scaring neighbours.
 
Starfleet would follow option A but would scale back in a few years or whenever they get their fleet near 'normal levels'.
 
A-- This answer is unfeasible and not particularly wise. The war is over, and the Federation needs to enter a phase of reconstruction and recuperation. To remain on war footing would exhaust the Federation's devestated economy building ships that will inevitably be mothballed by a military whose numbers have shrunk back to peace-time levels. Besides, it's practically impossible to keep a democracy on war-time footing during peace-time. You're just going to get your paranoid ass voted out of office by a war weary populace. Meanwhile, your neighbors are going to be getting very antsy about just what you intend to do with all of those ships you keep building for no readily apparent reason.

C-- This is basically what the US, France, and the UK did after WWI. And we all know how peachy that turned out.

B-- This is the only reasonable answer. Heck, it's the only sane answer. This leaves the Federation with more than enough ships already at their disposal to continue patrolling, planetary defense, and exploration.
 
A with some B mixed in.

Following the Dominion War, it was made very clear that the Dominion was basically trying to fight a war of attrition. This meant that Starfleet was scraping the barrel for ships, officers, and resources. Look at the DS9 Tech Manual to see some of the messed-up ship designs that came out of that war to see how clear that fact is. They would need to build ships and secure resources in order to replenish a peacetime fleet with a wartime reserve. I would imagine all of the surviving 23rd century ships (Excelsior, Constitution, Constellation, etc) would be going into mothballs to make way for the new Galaxy, Nebula, Sovereign, Intrepid, Defiant, Akira, Sabre, and whatever other class of ship they came up with to fill in the gaps that proved to be a sturdy design (Centaur-type comes to mind).

That being said, they need a LOT of people. No doubt the Federation had to strongarm as many able-bodied people into Starfleet to help fight once all the front-line officers were killed. Hell, they cadet-commissioned Nog with one-point-six years of Academy training! That means they were probably all reservists and as soon as peace was declared, most likely released from active duty to return to civilian life, though I'm sure some sought regular commissions in Starfleet if they really wanted it and I doubt Starfleet would've said no. This means while Starfleet could produce the ships, they'd need to train the officers and enlisteds up.

-- ZC
 
I don't understand why so many people think scrapping the Mirandas and Excelsiors is so urgent. Every time The US Navy retired WWII warships, they brought them back the next time a war came along. Ditto for Airforce bombers. Sturdy designs that work shouldn't be tossed aside so lightly. It's not like the systems haven't been overhauled. They aren't actually filled with antiquated 23rd Century equipment.
 
Before we discuss this, we should decide whether there ever was such a thing as "wartime production".

I mean, the point has already been made that the Federation needs a lot of ships even in supposed peacetime. It's a big galaxy, there are unknown foes and opportunities behind each nebula, every third episode we learn of a brush war that is either ongoing or happened a few years ago, yadda yadda. Why should we assume starship production isn't already maxed out in "peacetime"?

It's not as if we see surefire signs of increased shipbuilding during the war. No new designs seem to emerge, unless one counts the Defiant class which is seen in relatively low numbers. No ships witnessed sport "recent" registry numbers, numbers higher than those of known late 2360s - early 2370s ships like Defiant or Voyager or Equinox. The assorted kitbashes all feature elements familiar from early 24th century or even late 23rd century starships, this in combination with their low registries making it unlikely that they really are new additions to the Fleet.

Also, when we do visit Federation dockyards in "Relativity", admittedly just before the war but supposedly when escalation might already be starting, all we see is dozens of preexisting ships under repair or some sort of teardown, save perhaps for one Galaxy and one Intrepid.

I might thus vote for C, which would actually be the exact same as A...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I don't understand why so many people think scrapping the Mirandas and Excelsiors is so urgent. Every time The US Navy retired WWII warships, they brought them back the next time a war came along. Ditto for Airforce bombers. Sturdy designs that work shouldn't be tossed aside so lightly. It's not like the systems haven't been overhauled. They aren't actually filled with antiquated 23rd Century equipment.

Betazeds planetary defense systems were 75 years out of date and in the process of upgrade DURING the Dominion War (which was one of the reasons it was taken ... along with the defensive fleet being caught in the middle of battle training -> which is something I am still trying to digest because that makes no sense ... oh sure, one can always explain away why that happened, but realistically, it was a stupid move).
When you are dealing with that kind of stupidity, yes I would say it's entirely possible (likely even) that SF was sending those old ships (with crews) into certain deaths.

SF for one thing had time after suffering losses at Wolf 359 to upgrade their defenses throughout Federation space in possible expectation of a Borg attack.
Did they do it ?
Nothing on screen indicates they have.
The Defiant was placed into cold storage for years because: 'The Borg threat was not imminent' and because SF gave up when they encountered problems that were apparently taken cared of (as in 'stabilized')by DS9 crew in a matter of days, possibly a week or two.

An organization as the Federation/SF in reality would not be so careless.
But that was merely a tv show, and the writers had to often dumb things down to increase the drama right ?
 
Regarding the training absence debacle, I could well see the worth of performing constant large scale training maneuvers, while I see relatively little value in sitting inside a star system and waiting for the enemy to arrive. Sitting and waiting is not how starships best perform in battle. And the Federation couldn't really afford to have a decisively sized fleet sitting at every target to be defended - there just wouldn't be enough ships for that. They'd have to move their assets constantly, keep second-guessing the enemy and hopefully constantly keeping up offensive pressure against him so that he has to second-guess, too.

In that sense, the thing that doesn't sound right about the loss of Betazed is that the temporary absence of the fleet was crucial in the first place. The 10th may have been assigned the role of defending Betazed, but it would have other roles to play as well, and the maximum benefit to Starfleet would come from having the 10th where the enemy least expected to find it.

Basically, I'd see the spaceborne element of the Dominion War as akin to pre-WWI naval battles. If there was "wireless" to keep the players informed about the movements of the enemy, it would be of short range and suffer from delays. There would be no "radar" to speak of, no "satellite surveillance" to tell in advance where the enemy is moving and what he is doing. Fleets would roam around unpredictably, and the loss of a planet here, another there would have to be the accepted price of the off chance that one's decisively sized fleet might be in the right place at least once and thus stop the enemy from roaming any more. Really, the French and the Dutch regularly won naval conflicts in the 17th and 18th centuries by fleeing at the first sight of the Spaniards or the Royal Navy - they were a much greater threat in not doing anything much than they would have been in getting sunk by the enemy.

As for upgrading against the Borg, I'm not sure if that would have been even theoretically possible. Obviously, the Defiant wasn't the way to go: at the time she was abandoned, she had been declared a propulsive failure without any known positive aspects, and when she finally did go against the Borg in ST:FC, she didn't do any good. Probably Starfleet upgraded all or most of its ships with the ability to, say, rapidly retune their phasers, and that may have contributed to the success in ST:FC. But any effort put into building new, starship-sized superweapons would have been wasted, because such weapons are by definition useless against the Borg after the first shot or three. That is, unless the weapons would be lethal on first shot. (And if Starfleet ever created such weapons, the Klingons would do wisely to annihilate Earth as a preemptive measure...)

I mean, was it idiocy for the United States not to devise a countermeasure to Soviet ICBMs? Not really, when the task was impossible to begin with. The attempt at fielding such a system in the seventies (Safeguard/Sentinel) was a costly failure that would never have done any good - but fortunately it was cut short. The repeat attempt in the eighties proved a flop as well, but at least served another, more cunning strategic purpose.

Timo Saloniemi
 
What should they do post Dom War (and Reman incidient)?

A-Continue to build ships at (near) war production and stay on a war footing b/c ya never know what will happen

As others have said in the thread your normally peaceful neighbours would get very itchy if you did this - plus building a huge fleet in case of something happening is fairly pointless - you don't know if your huge fleet would be remotely suited for the war you find yourself in.

B-Scale back to pre Dominion encounter/pre-Borg production and introduce new ships as need be to keep down costs and perhaps a lil more exploring of the Alpha Q.

Well this is clearly what they would want to do - they have hundreds and hundreds of patrol combatants ready to keep the peace so you can build your big explorers again.

C-Go into a total peace-time footing. Plan no more warships, decom older warships because it looks like an extended period of peace in our time. Seemingly the Romulans aren't enemies anymore, the Klingons are our buds, the Doms are quelled and of course the Borg is outta commision for a good, long time.

Well this is what you are talking about in B isn't it?

Starfleet is always huge, has a huge job and would need a huge fleet in any circumstances, they probably have a mothball fleet as well otherwise where did all those exclesiors and Mirandas come from.

I love the idea of the Steamrunners as a class of cheap general purpose ships for taking names in the Cardassian war - their coming out of the woodwork in time to go join Sisko's battle at the end of Season 5 makes perfect sense that day - the mothball fleet goes to war... ;)
 
Regarding the training absence debacle, I could well see the worth of performing constant large scale training maneuvers, while I see relatively little value in sitting inside a star system and waiting for the enemy to arrive. Sitting and waiting is not how starships best perform in battle. And the Federation couldn't really afford to have a decisively sized fleet sitting at every target to be defended - there just wouldn't be enough ships for that. They'd have to move their assets constantly, keep second-guessing the enemy and hopefully constantly keeping up offensive pressure against him so that he has to second-guess, too.

In that sense, the thing that doesn't sound right about the loss of Betazed is that the temporary absence of the fleet was crucial in the first place. The 10th may have been assigned the role of defending Betazed, but it would have other roles to play as well, and the maximum benefit to Starfleet would come from having the 10th where the enemy least expected to find it.

Basically, I'd see the spaceborne element of the Dominion War as akin to pre-WWI naval battles. If there was "wireless" to keep the players informed about the movements of the enemy, it would be of short range and suffer from delays. There would be no "radar" to speak of, no "satellite surveillance" to tell in advance where the enemy is moving and what he is doing. Fleets would roam around unpredictably, and the loss of a planet here, another there would have to be the accepted price of the off chance that one's decisively sized fleet might be in the right place at least once and thus stop the enemy from roaming any more. Really, the French and the Dutch regularly won naval conflicts in the 17th and 18th centuries by fleeing at the first sight of the Spaniards or the Royal Navy - they were a much greater threat in not doing anything much than they would have been in getting sunk by the enemy.

As for upgrading against the Borg, I'm not sure if that would have been even theoretically possible. Obviously, the Defiant wasn't the way to go: at the time she was abandoned, she had been declared a propulsive failure without any known positive aspects, and when she finally did go against the Borg in ST:FC, she didn't do any good. Probably Starfleet upgraded all or most of its ships with the ability to, say, rapidly retune their phasers, and that may have contributed to the success in ST:FC. But any effort put into building new, starship-sized superweapons would have been wasted, because such weapons are by definition useless against the Borg after the first shot or three. That is, unless the weapons would be lethal on first shot. (And if Starfleet ever created such weapons, the Klingons would do wisely to annihilate Earth as a preemptive measure...)

I mean, was it idiocy for the United States not to devise a countermeasure to Soviet ICBMs? Not really, when the task was impossible to begin with. The attempt at fielding such a system in the seventies (Safeguard/Sentinel) was a costly failure that would never have done any good - but fortunately it was cut short. The repeat attempt in the eighties proved a flop as well, but at least served another, more cunning strategic purpose.

Timo Saloniemi

Timo, I wasn't referring to upgrading the whole Federation with anti-borg techs on the Defiant (although the rapid phaser changing frequencies would have been a standard for any ship/installation in the fleet) ... I was referring to the general lack of upgrading Betazeds planetary defenses that were neglected for 75 years.
Their firepower and targeting systems (not to mention power cores) would have been by almost a century outdated (which was essentially what was mentioned) that only contributed to the Dominion easily taking over the Betazed system.
And I would argue that raw power DOES play a big part in the equation if the Borg are hit with a phaser beam that is 4x as powerful as the type 10 array onboard the Enterprise-D at a frequency the Borg don't expect.
Yes, the Borg can minimize the damage of the phaser shot, but unless they completely adapt to it then a damage will be done.
If 1 phaser shot of the Enterprise E is able to deliver (let's say) 5% of damage ... just how much damage do you think Kirk's 1701 (Original) would be able to deliver when we take into consideration those phasers are nowhere close in power output compared to what the Sovereign or the Galaxy class have at it's disposal ?
One would assume the Borg don't construct their hulls which are vulnerable to such things, because for one thing certain spheres are made of ablative hull armor (and we can only guess of what density).
So I would definitely say it's a combination of power output and changing of frequencies (not to mention other factors) in order to deliver the blows that actually have an effect.

Besides, the Feds have other enemies instead of the Borg.
So creating new, more effective and powerful weapons would continue to be done.
Unless you want them to muddle around with the same power output for the next 300 years by which time the rest of the galaxy will be ahead of them in military terms and some of the more aggressive species would see them as easy for picking.
 
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C-- This is basically what the US, France, and the UK did after WWI. And we all know how peachy that turned out.
Also after the Napoleonic Wars, and there the general European Peace only lasted a mere century. It's quite possible that the start of World War II was based in something more than the demilitarization of the 1920s.
 
Their firepower and targeting systems (not to mention power cores) would have been by almost a century outdated (which was essentially what was mentioned) that only contributed to the Dominion easily taking over the Betazed system.

Would firepower really evolve in the Trek universe, though? It's not like the nation-to-nation competition on a single planetary surface where everybody starts from the same line. Many threat forces would be grossly inferior to begin with, many grossly superior, and the average of that would not markedly change because the expansion of the Federation would bring in more of both the weak and the strong opponents (and proponents).

And I would argue that raw power DOES play a big part in the equation if the Borg are hit with a phaser beam that is 4x as powerful as the type 10 array onboard the Enterprise-D at a frequency the Borg don't expect.

Why should we think it would be possible to build something that is four times as powerful as the best the R&D could come up with for the Galaxy?

Certainly it would have been nice to have 30-inch naval cannon in WWII, or hypersonic bombers...

Starfleet would probably do wisest by deploying four Galaxies versus the Borg where it formerly only deployed one. But again, why should we think Starfleet would be capable of deploying any more ships than it already does?

So I would definitely say it's a combination of power output and changing of frequencies (not to mention other factors) in order to deliver the blows that actually have an effect.

...No disagreement with this.

I don't think the "galaxy" will progress much in the next 300 years, though. If it could do that, it would have done so millions of years ago already. Stagnation of the average seems to be the rule here, even if individual cultures continue to evolve. And the bigger the Federation grows, the more it has to mind the average.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I believe The Great Link will overthrow Odo very quickly and be coming back very shortly for round II. I believe they will not accept the female Founder's surrender on grounds that she had gone insane, therefore they will declare it null and void.

Therefore the Feds should keep up war production standards.

Well it was said pretty clearly in the Dominion Occupation of DS9 arc that Odo meant more to the Great Link than the entire Alpha Quadrant.
 
Timo, I wasn't referring to upgrading the whole Federation with anti-borg techs on the Defiant (although the rapid phaser changing frequencies would have been a standard for any ship/installation in the fleet) ... I was referring to the general lack of upgrading Betazeds planetary defenses that were neglected for 75 years.

Where does that come from? I don't recall anything in DS9 saying that.
 
Oh I entirely agree that it's possible for stagnation to happen, but with all the technologies and information that Voyager brought back from the DQ (not the future ones), I would argue that the Feds would have a field day when it comes to R&D for the next several decades which will affect their techs for a century or two ... and they are bound to develop their technology further and further.
If TNG is to be taken into account then the Feds would start implementing Temporal based technologies into their systems by the 26the century (at the latest).

I don't really think the Federation can afford a stagnation period past 24th century.
If there's anything we learned from TNG and DS9, is that the Borg initial encounters with the Feds gave them ample amount of time to prepare prior to the DW, and all they did were 'minor blips'.
In reality such blunders wouldn't have happened ... which is why I give 'credit' in regards to those blunders to the writers who wanted to increase the drama.

But let's not go into that debate again.

The firepower in the Trek universe would definitely saw increase.
I mean ... we have an actual example of the NX-01 and multiple amounts of Archers era ships having virtually no effect on the 1701 shields.
Granted, we don't know just how powerful the 1701-A would be against the 1701-D, but I would say that the differences in technology, computer response times and over all power output generated by the weapons/shields of mid 24th century would produce a close effect like the Defiant in the mirror universe (Archer's era) did.

In any case, one of the main reasons why Betazed fell was because it's defensive systems were 78 years out of date.
That much has been stated, and I would argue that it's quite probable how the firepower between an orbiting weapons platform of Kirk's era and a new 24th century era one is quite big.
It has to be if you want to compensate for 100 years of shields and weapons enhancements that happened.

The best the R&D made was NOT the Galaxy class.
The only reason why people glorify it is because such a big deal was made out of it, the TM explains it in detail and essentially it was the point in Trek when we began seeing new designs inherent to that era instead of the old ones (which were still used a lot), when in comparison to the Sovereign class (I think you mentioned yourself at one point) the Galaxy is less advanced/stronger.
I kept hearing of people how they say the Enterprise D was 'huge' ... when in fact it was twice as small in comparison to the Romulan Warbird (albeit almost evenly matched).

For the sake of the story and drama, you will never see 4 Galaxy class ships against a Borg cube. :D
Well, not on a Trek TV show.
And for that matter, even if it was 8 Sovereigns that fired all at once with all their weapons, the writers would come up with some kind of an excuse that would nullify the effect so the Borg could live until the hero ship arrives and blasts it to pieces with the final blow.
Makes the rest of the Fleet look like idiots. :D
 
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Timo, I wasn't referring to upgrading the whole Federation with anti-borg techs on the Defiant (although the rapid phaser changing frequencies would have been a standard for any ship/installation in the fleet) ... I was referring to the general lack of upgrading Betazeds planetary defenses that were neglected for 75 years.

Where does that come from? I don't recall anything in DS9 saying that.

Re-watch the episode in which Betazed was taken during the DW.
I think the dialog clearly states that those systems were neglected for decades.
 
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