Indy 4 still as infuriating as ever

[2takesfrakes]

People would go insane just to get an extension of 20 years for their life.

Not if it meant spending those 20 years doing nothing except guarding a bunch of cups.

As bad as it sucks being a Cup Guarder and all of that ... what's with the booby traps to the front door? Might as well just advertise it on the side of a bus, what difference does it make? It's proof of the existance of god, is what it all seems to come down to. That's the only reason not to open this damn place as a Museum, as far as I can reason it out.

 

[davejames]

Well that's why I tend to think he didn't drink from the Grail. Because if he did, even a little, you would think that would be enough to keep him a healthy young knight forever. Since it doesn't seem quite as special or magical if the power wears off after only a few months or years, or it only slows down the aging process (and that's not usually how the legend goes anyway, I don't think).

 

[Professor Zoom]

So do you age and become weak indefinitely, but you don't die? That makes no sense.

Why doesn't that make sense?
If anything, its cautionary. Be careful what you desire.

Why would the Knight NOT keep drinking if that would keep him in fighting form? That doesn't make any sense.

So in another 800 years, the knight would have lived as an extremely frail skeleton? And another 800 years later, he would have lived as a skeleton?

No, because a skeleton implies there is no flesh, therefore death. So. No.

Aging means your cells stop dividing, die and don't get renewed. It's not just a cosmetic thing. You get weaker and weaker and die of old age for a reason. Being immortal, but still showing signs of aging makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You're really going to argue sense in a supernatural thing? Really? You're going for the "logical" position on the supernatural...?

I'll take another example, Captain Jack Harkness from Doctor Who. He's immortal. He's still aging. Becomes the Face of Boe.

You bring up a valid point. Let's assume the Knight did constantly drink from it. That means the Grail was NEVER about immortality, only prolonging life (and the Nazis were just wrong about it).

I'm assuming the Knight wasn't drinking from it. He didn't need to. He had gained whatever immortality he was going to get, so long as he didn't leave the temple.

 

[2takesfrakes]

People would go insane just to get an extension of 20 years for their life.

Not if it meant spending those 20 years doing nothing except guarding a bunch of cups.

Which they didn't know until they found out about it. The point, even if it was just 20 years, the Nazis would still have a hard-on for getting it.

It's just curious to me why George Lucas would insist upon this particular item as Indy's next find.

You mean besides the fame and popularity of it which trumps pretty much any other relic?

>>SNORT!!!<<

I wouldn't exactly say it "trumps" all others, but you do have a point in that General Audiences know what you mean when you say The Holy Grail, or at least, they get the general idea. But as a follow-up to the Shikara Stones, it was a let down, visually. I'm really kind of surprised at that. If not for the deliberate casting of Sean Connery, and the interest his character could then generate, this movie would've probably tanked.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Not if it meant spending those 20 years doing nothing except guarding a bunch of cups.

Which they didn't know until they found out about it. The point, even if it was just 20 years, the Nazis would still have a hard-on for getting it.

It's just curious to me why George Lucas would insist upon this particular item as Indy's next find.

You mean besides the fame and popularity of it which trumps pretty much any other relic?

>>SNORT!!!<<

I wouldn't exactly say it "trumps" all others, but you do have a point in that General Audiences know what you mean when you say The Holy Grail, or at least, they get the general idea. But as a follow-up to the Shikara Stones, it was a let down, visually. I'm really kind of surprised at that. If not for the deliberate casting of Sean Connery, and the interest his character could then generate, this movie would've probably tanked.

SERIOUSLY?! You think an Indiana Jones movie, in the 80s, with the biggest star on the planet, with Spielberg at the helm, would have TANKED?!

You cannot possibly believe this.

 

[davejames]

Well Lucas and Spielberg did admit that the son/father relationship was what really drove the story and made it work. Since they realized simply going after the Grail itself wouldn't be interesting enough (yeah it may be a well known legend, but it's still not nearly as cool or mysterious as the Ark).

No way would it have tanked though. It just wouldn't have been nearly as good.

 

[2takesfrakes]

"The Biggest Star," being Harrison Ford, you mean? Hmmm ... well ... maybe you're right that it wouldn't it have tanked. KINGDOM of the CRYSTAL SKULL certainly proved that even the shittiest INDIANA JONES movie could do very well. I withdraw my "would've tanked" remark.

((...snicker))

 

[The Old Mixer]

People would go insane just to get an extension of 20 years for their life.

Not if it meant spending those 20 years doing nothing except guarding a bunch of cups.

Well, maybe if the temple had Wi-Fi....

What if he ages on a curve? Say that for every 30 years, he ages half of what he aged the previous 30 years. If I'm doing the math right, at 60 he'd physically be 45, at 90 he'd be 52, etc. By age 300, he's still pushing 60 physically (and that's as far as I cared to take it). You could be old for a very, very long time but still eventually die.

 

[Captrek]

He wasn't "guarding" the cups. He immediately kneeled and handed his sword to the first person who showed up. He was there to narrate, nothing more.

 

[Aldo]

He wasn't "guarding" the cups. He immediately kneeled and handed his sword to the first person who showed up. He was there to narrate, nothing more.

He attempted to attack Indy at first, until the weight of the sword was too much for him. Only then did he hand it to Indy after he "vanquished him."

 

[davejames]

What I want to know, is why someone as supposedly smart and clever as Donovan didn't make someone else (whether Indy or a bunch of his Nazis) drink from all the cups first to narrow it down to the correct one. Because even if he wasn't an expert himself, there were clearly plenty of cups there as equally gaudy and fancy as the one Elsa picked for him.

I know we're meant to believe that he's so blinded by his greed and thirst for power that nothing else mattered, but I'm still not sure I really buy it.

 

[Professor Zoom]

"The Biggest Star," being Harrison Ford, you mean? Hmmm ... well ... maybe you're right that it wouldn't it have tanked. KINGDOM of the CRYSTAL SKULL certainly proved that even the shittiest INDIANA JONES movie could do very well. I withdraw my "would've tanked" remark.

((...snicker))

I don't know what you're snickering about. You were wrong.

Personal opinion of the quality of a movie, especially a big blockbuster movie, rarely reflects in box office take. The Transformers being a great example.

Hate all you want, and I don't disagree with many of the criticisms, but Kingdom was a massive success.

 

[2takesfrakes]

What I want to know, is why someone as supposedly smart and clever as Donovan didn't make someone else (whether Indy or a bunch of his Nazis) drink from all the cups first to narrow it down to the correct one.

I've always wondered the same thing about that. The invisible bridge - especially as it had no guard rails and was only about a foot wide - would certainly limit the amount of people you could get through. That's some scary shit, traversing a chasm that way! Although, they'd probably end up throwing a rope across, or something like that.

Also, I was never sure how far Donovan's "authority" actually went. The Arabs might've been more inclined to take his orders than the Nazi's were, but there wouldn't have been much satisfaction in seeing that, I guess.

But yeah, the same guy who's been saying all along, "don't trust anyone," is the same guy who trusts a hot Nazi to make his most important decision for him. If she had been sleeping with him, at least that could help sell the idea he'd trust her to make the choice for him. There is absolutely no evidence of that, as he was in her clique and I do not see any attraction there, on her part. Sleeping with the Jones's was necessary manipulation, although, Indy probably held some charm for her.

 

[mos6507]

I wouldn't exactly say it "trumps" all others, but you do have a point in that General Audiences know what you mean when you say The Holy Grail, or at least, they get the general idea. But as a follow-up to the Shikara Stones, it was a let down, visually.

I disagree. "Holy Grail" is an established figure-of-speech representing a quest, usually an impossible-one. It was the obvious choice, far better than the McGuffin in Temple of Doom.

The Shroud of Turin was never lost so that can't be a McGuffin. How many other artifacts are there that are universally well-known and missing besides the Ark and the Grail? The only other ones are entire lost civilizations like Atlantis (hence the game).

The worst you can say about choosing the Grail is that it is a Christian artifact and therefore validates Jesus' divinity within the Indy universe, whereas the Ark can be more broadly accepted.

 

[AgentCoop]

It honestly never occurred to me that Elsa wasn't sleeping with Donovan. And anyway, does Donovan strike anyone as the sort of guy who would be okay with anyone other than himself gaining immortality?

 

[Silvercrest]

I know we're meant to believe that he's so blinded by his greed and thirst for power that nothing else mattered, but I'm still not sure I really buy it.

Maybe he was blinded by his thirst.

Personal opinion of the quality of a movie, especially a big blockbuster movie, rarely reflects in box office take. The Transformers being a great example.

Amazing! I didn't think Michael Bay's Transformers and the word "great" could be properly used together.

I disagree. "Holy Grail" is an established figure-of-speech representing a quest, usually an impossible-one.

This.

The Shroud of Turin was never lost so that can't be a McGuffin. How many other artifacts are there that are universally well-known and missing besides the Ark and the Grail? The only other ones are entire lost civilizations like Atlantis (hence the game).

Depends what's considered universally well-known. The True Cross? The Spear of Longinus? Excalibur? Roland's Horn? Joseph's Coat of Many Colors? I suppose the other Ark is universally well-known, but I don't know if it counts as an "artifact" in the same sense.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I know we're meant to believe that he's so blinded by his greed and thirst for power that nothing else mattered, but I'm still not sure I really buy it.

Maybe he was blinded by his thirst.

Personal opinion of the quality of a movie, especially a big blockbuster movie, rarely reflects in box office take. The Transformers being a great example.

Amazing! I didn't think Michael Bay's Transformers and the word "great" could be properly used together.

Thanks. I have degrees. What's also nice about that sentence, it also dumps on Transformers at the same time.

It's a money machine, to be sure. A big dumb money machine that some how gets called a movie because it has images that move.

 

[Tom]

What I want to know, is why someone as supposedly smart and clever as Donovan didn't make someone else (whether Indy or a bunch of his Nazis) drink from all the cups first to narrow it down to the correct one. Because even if he wasn't an expert himself, there were clearly plenty of cups there as equally gaudy and fancy as the one Elsa picked for him.

I know we're meant to believe that he's so blinded by his greed and thirst for power that nothing else mattered, but I'm still not sure I really buy it.

"He chose... poorly!"

 

[2takesfrakes]

I wouldn't exactly say it "trumps" all others ...

I disagree. "Holy Grail" is an established figure-of-speech representing a quest, usually an impossible-one. It was the obvious choice, far better than the McGuffin in Temple of Doom.

The Shikara Stones of DOOM were alright, as a "McGuffin," in relation to the almost devil-worshipping cult surrounding it. As I understand it, they really did exist around this time, though not as Hollywoodified as we see here - obviously.

Voodoo has nothing to do with any religion or cult in India, nor does Eyeball Soup or Monkey Brains or any of that made-up stuff we saw in DOOM. But had the script shown less ignorance of India and borrowed more heavily from Historical Fact, then, I suppose, the stones would've ended up being perceived as the only real "flaw" of the movie, as not being "interesting" or "worthy enough" for an Indy picture.

I don't know. But I, personally, have no problem with Lucas & Spielberg having introduced a "McGuffin" that nobody outside of India might've heard about. I don't think these movies MUST rely on Popular Legend.

Saying of which, aliens play no part in legend, whatsoever. Human History is replete with legends of magical, mystical creatures, like Dragons, let's say. But it was understood, even then, probably, that they were more a symbol for something, rather than a flying beast you had to be on the watch for. Regardless of any debate, the fact was, in the Indy Universe, aliens are "real." Aliens also, like The Holy Grail, are part of the Popular Culture and unfortunately, they decided to play it "safe" by using them.

Harrison Ford's so old now, it doesn't matter what you do with Indy, anymore. Back in the 8O's this franchise had great potential and could explore different concepts alot better and appeal to audiences on many levels. This franchise is just a Novelty Act as long as Ford's onboard. And I, personally, would not mind seeing them rebooting it. If they do, just please ... leave the Ark angle alone ... it will never be done that well, again!!!

 

[Doctorwhovian]

I wonder how Ford will play Han Solo in Episode VII. While Indiana Jones is a role he loves, he's never really been as enthusiastic with bringing Han back (Something which kind of shows in ROTJ)