LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[BillJ]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Average.

Seemed 'unfinished' though.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

It was a very fast read (particularly compared to Elizabeth Warren's most recent opus, which had a smaller page count, yet took more than twice as long).

Seems to me that there was some unrealized potential. You don't put two large crews into a starship, for nearly a year of station-keeping with a spatial anomaly, without interesting things happening, unless you put them into hibernation, and yet that whole section read like "Nothing to see here; move along."

 

[Kertrats47]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Just posted my review. I liked the character work and action in this story. Not what I expected, but a nice change of pace.

 

[Christopher]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

^One point about that review: This wouldn't be Trek Lit's first allusion to polyamorous or open relationships. Hunter in Vonda N. McIntyre's The Entropy Effect, the very first original Pocket novel, was in a "group marriage" that Kirk declined an invitation to join. And of course there are alien polyamorous relationships like Denobulan marriages and Andorian shelthreth bonds. Although I suppose those are more polygamous than polyamorous, since they involve actual marriage. But I think that would count as a subset of polyamory.

 

[Kertrats47]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

^One point about that review: This wouldn't be Trek Lit's first allusion to polyamorous or open relationships. Hunter in Vonda N. McIntyre's The Entropy Effect, the very first original Pocket novel, was in a "group marriage" that Kirk declined an invitation to join. And of course there are alien polyamorous relationships like Denobulan marriages and Andorian shelthreth bonds. Although I suppose those are more polygamous than polyamorous, since they involve actual marriage. But I think that would count as a subset of polyamory.

With regards to Denobulan and Andorian marriages, I more meant relationships that involved humans. But that's cool about The Entropy Effect, I didn't remember that at all!

 

[Markonian]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Seekers is going to establish the Arkenites as polyamorous, if I understood that correctly. Anyway, whether it's Humans or aliens, the variety of possible relationships is fascinating to read about especially because they're not your cookie-cutter man-and-woman marriage.

 

[Kertrats47]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Seekers is going to establish the Arkenites as polyamorous, if I understood that correctly. Anyway, whether it's Humans or aliens, the variety of possible relationships is fascinating to read about especially because they're not your cookie-cutter man-and-woman marriage.

Exactly! I'm all for a little more IDIC when it comes to relationships and sexuality. I have a friend in a polyamorous relationship who was thrilled when I told him about the bit from this novel!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Is Ensign Syndergaard a nod to the Las Vegas 51's player?

You have my attention.

 

[datalogan]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

I liked the reference to a human in polygamous relationship. But it did weird me out a little that one of them was the First Officer in command over the other 2.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

^ How so? Fraternization is completely legal in Starfleet. As long as everyone involved wants it, there's no problem.

 

[datalogan]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

^ How so? Fraternization is completely legal in Starfleet. As long as everyone involved wants it, there's no problem.

You are correct. It's obviously OK in Starfleet. We've seen it before, even in cannon with Captain Picard and LCDR Nella Daren in "Lessons". [Picard did have a little problem with the relationship, but that said more about him as a person than any Starfleet policy.]
Any minor pause that the story gave me was due to my own real life experiences in the military. I'm not saying it's inconsistent with Trek as we know it.

Though it was curious that, when thinking about it, LCDR Sulu makes it a point to mention the relationship is "OK" because neither of them are "direct" subordinates of hers <basically; I don't remember the exact words>. This may imply some standards or limits in Starfleet for relationships. Or it may just indicate what kind of relationships she in particular would be comfortable in, regardless of the rules.

 

[datalogan]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Some of the books, e.g. Rise of the Federation series, have gone into that in more depth and suggested (logically, I think) that the degree of pheromonal allure differs from Orion to Orion, so that while some females are powerful and seductive enough pheromone-wise that they become de facto rulers of their society, others aren't (and the women who are guard their control jealously, at that).

Just think about it. Do you suppose Gaila from Star Trek 2009 would ever be allowed to set foot on Starfleet grounds if it were known that she can influence any average humanoid male?

I have wondered how the Federation deals with that sort of thing, actually. The complexities must be headache-inducing; the balance between inclusion and protection of individual liberties difficult to determine, the legal protections for both the citizen in question and those around them potentially difficult to mutually respect. Things could get ugly, or at least hurtful.
. . .

I imagine UFP citizens are thick-skinned at least, if not outright embracing of most differences and generally accepting, but we know there are some boundaries. The Deltans have their Oath of Celibacy of course (while serving in Starfleet, at least - has it ever been confirmed if Deltans working in other Federation agencies take it? Or the Deltan-on-the-non-Dhei-street?); Shelby in New Frontier insisted that Gleau the Selelvian agree to something similar (back when she still mostly thought his impositions through The Knack were generally innocent, even if she was beginning to suspect otherwise - and, again, he was a Starfleet officer not an ordinary citizen). Is an Orion with full-on pheromones allowed within the UFP? She can't consciously control it, after all, so even if she considered their use to affect others completely immoral and never wanted to take advantage (not common, I'd imagine, since it's literally completely natural to them and people influence each other through subtle means all the time - where is the line drawn? "You used your charisma at me! Guards, arrest him!") would she be required by law to take drugs to shut the ability off if she wanted to even set foot in the UFP? Must she be less than herself to enter?

(This also makes me think of the sub-plot in Myriad Universes: Places of Exile involving the Casciron species, who are required by Vostigye Union law to surrender their natural poison glands and stingers before being accepted as refugees; the story features some heated disagreements between Casciron religious figures/general protestors and the Vostigye establishment - the law says no weapons, and poison stings are classified as a natural weapon, so off they come)

And that's just when a given female Orion of the ruling lineages is an outsider seeking to enter the UFP. What happens when an Orion girl, a UFP citizen, reaches puberty? Is she tested for how strong her pheromones are, to ensure she doesn't naturally and unknowingly impose on others? Where is the line drawn if so? Is she legally required due to her species to take certain medical treatments? Very thorny, I'm sure many would agree; even if species isn't mentioned anywhere in the legalese, it's obviously still more-or-less central to the issue. Would Orion citizens accept being in turn imposed on, as though (they might argue) they are inherently under suspicion or seen as criminal, immoral or naturally "unsafe" (particularly when being from a species that clearly has a number of unpleasant stereotypes to work against anyway)? "My daughter's done nothing wrong, but she's singled out and treated like a criminal!" VS "I'm not having my son around an Orion who hasn't been tested and made to take the right level of pheromone suppressant; what about his rights and protections?" "We're being singled out as suspicious" VS "we're talking about biology, this isn't your character being disparaged", etc, etc.

How, I wonder, does it work?

Even if it generally works smoothly, sooner or later some individual will raise a stink.

I'm very uneasy with the idea of legally compelling people to suppress or surrender natural physical advantages that could be used as weapons. I mean, lots of people have advantages. In humans, men are usually stronger than women, and sadly, some of them turn that edge into a weapon against women, or against weaker men. Of course we should regulate people's behavior, teach them not to use their physical advantages to harm or impose upon others and penalize them when they do. But drugging or mutilating them to remove those physical advantages would be taking it too far. I certainly wasn't endorsing the Vostigye's rules vis-a-vis the Casciron in PoI.

I think the rule in the Federation would be the same as the rule in our society: People are going to have different advantages that could be used to dominate or harm others, but the law only penalizes them for using those advantages in such ways, rather than pre-emptively punishing or restricting them for having advantages in the first place.

I mean, suppressing or altering people's biology to bring their abilities in line with everyone else sounds like the kind of Procrustean solution the Breen would employ. The Federation is about respecting diversity, trusting and encouraging citizens to use their diverse gifts in a positive way.

I'm very uneasy with the idea of legally compelling people to suppress or surrender natural physical advantages that could be used as weapons.

A position I agree with, I think. I note there's no firm conclusion or easy answer in your post; I respect that.

I just keep thinking of it like this: It might seem like a happy or easy solution to require Orion females to chemically suppress their pheromones, at least if they're of unusual strength, but even if 19 out of 20 Orion girls in the UFP happily did so without a second thought, there's going to be that twentieth girl who's thinking "I'm not a bad person. I know we Orions are often seen as criminals, not to be trusted, that we Orion girls are often seen as obsessed with sex. They don't trust me because of what I am. They're singling me out as inherently unsafe, inherently a problem, inherently against them". Not the sort of thing the UFP would be wanting to do, and it's very hard to be told that your inclusion depends on being less than what you naturally are.

I'm generally a very liberal person (I would stress that that's liberal with a small l, not a political affiliation as an American or Australian, to use two differing examples, might read it), so I too tend to distrust any blanket controls or impositions; being too hands-off is usually the lesser of two evils with me, compared with being too-hands on.

I suppose rather than require an Orion female to suppress pheromones, there could be easily-available pheromone blockers that people could discreetly take if there are Orions around? That would sit more easily with me.

Also...where would the line be drawn, legally? Pheramones of this level are okay, no different from being unusually charismatic, etc., but at this level, slightly above, you're drugging people and it needs to be controlled?

I like this little side conversation spurred on between Nesat and Christopher.
Obviously our politics are going to be a lot more complicated when we have to start dealing with more and more different beings. Ones with abilities very different from our experience. Like the X-Men. Or aliens. There could even be times when just getting two different beings together in the same room can cause harm, like when a Medusan is exposed to a human in TOS "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

I think the obvious "simple" answer to the problem is that politics will have to solve these issues by making laws and treaties to govern the normal patterns (and to decide where to "draw the line" between OK and not OK [like with levels of Orion pheromones]). But, obviously, politics is already not simple as it is.

The focus should be on defaulting to "liberal" views and only putting in restrictions when there is direct harm. Not implied harm, as might be the case with ideas like removing natural weapons, etc. And, of course, beings will always be able to [at least try to] segregate themselves away from the "others" they don't feel comfortable around.

 

[Christopher]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

I suppose rather than require an Orion female to suppress pheromones, there could be easily-available pheromone blockers that people could discreetly take if there are Orions around? That would sit more easily with me.

I overlooked this part before, and it's just what I was thinking myself. Why should it be the female's responsibility to change her nature? Why shouldn't it be men's responsibility to govern their own reaction to her nature?


Another thing to consider: It's unlikely that Orions secrete the same levels of pheromones constantly. The release of attractant pheromones is probably triggered by arousal or, oh, maybe competition with other females, or possibly by fear or anxiety if it's a defense mechanism. So it's a function of state of mind and circumstances. And that implies that an Orion could learn to restrain the release of her pheromones, to keep her libido under control so that the pheromones aren't released too strongly -- probably very much like a Deltan operating under an oath of celibacy. So again, it's a matter of individual behavior and self-control, and not something that requires the state to impose invasive laws regulating people's bodies.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Why should it be the female's responsibility to change her nature? Why shouldn't it be men's responsibility to govern their own reaction to her nature?

Perhaps it's not a gender issue, as much as it might be this:

In the general population of Starfleet cadets, they might not know when, if ever, an Orion will be assigned to join them. So expecting the Academy class in general to take an inhibitor just in case an Orion might be assigned there later, might be less realistic than making it the Orion's responsibility.

An Orion cadet, OTOH, will probably be briefed in advance as to where they'll be assigned. If they'll be joining a group of cadets that are susceptible to their pheromones, they can take an inhibitor before they ever get there. They'll know in advance if their classmates will be vulnerable to Orion pheromones - if not, then they don't need to do anything, and if they are, then the cadet can take precautions.

In short, it's not a gender issue so much as a "Let's not make these cadets take drugs unless they absolutely have to" issue.

 

[DEWLine]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Also, there's the additional possible complication of drug interactions. What if the "standard" inhibitors on offer mess up something else the cadet's already taking - legitimately - for another medical issue? I'm guessing that such things would already be watched for as standard procedure at Starfleet Medical Command?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

And let me just say, no one is trying to be sexist here. At least I don't think they are. It's just that, well, which makes more sense? The general mass of cadets ALL taking inhibitors just in case an Orion "happens" to be placed among them, or an Orion cadet knowing in advance where they'll be assigned, and taking an inhibitor IF they need to? Think about it.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Let us not forget the Deltan situation:
"My oath of celibacy is on record" -- Lt. Ilia, ST:TMP

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

I suppose rather than require an Orion female to suppress pheromones, there could be easily-available pheromone blockers that people could discreetly take if there are Orions around? That would sit more easily with me.

I overlooked this part before, and it's just what I was thinking myself. Why should it be the female's responsibility to change her nature? Why shouldn't it be men's responsibility to govern their own reaction to her nature?.

Because she's the one drugging them.

While, like I said, I'm basically in agreement with you, what you say here does makes me uncomfortable. It potentially comes across as a desire to avoid having to assign responsibility to the Orion and instead deflect all responsibility onto the people around her; insisting that she has license, while they have responsibility. They must simply accept the imposition she brings without complaint, and if they do complain it's their own fault, for not being responsible enough.

If there's going to be a social expectation of everyone around her to just suck it up, why not a social expectation that she will take steps to reign it in? Why must everyone be responsible but her? Why must they be responsible even with pheromones clogging up their every pore, but she can't possibly be expected to act to ensure that she isn't having that effect on everyone to begin with? Why is her natural state of pheromone production sacrosanct but everyone else's natural state of clear-headedness not?

Like I say, I'm a very liberal person by nature. I'm not in favour of state controls or strict social enforcements in the majority of situations, I don't like forcing minorities to conform so as not to upset the majority, and I wouldn't be comfortable with placing pressure on Orion females not to exist as they naturally do. Which we seem to be in agreement on. But I also don't like the all-too-common situation wherein supposed liberalism is actually a sneaky conservatism that merely shifts responsibility onto those who are considered automatically "rightfully" burdened by such; which insists that responsibility for some people not only be enforced but doubled-down on, while others are granted license that makes them essentially free from criticism or responsibility to others (a situation which far too many people seem to slip comfortably into as a default worldview, because there are deep instincts being soothingly stroked here). And, indeed, where responsibility in others is hammered home to cover over the cracks that the situation is causing rather than actually acknowledging the imbalance.

Personally, I'd want an Orion female to be treated as any other UFP citizen - so no imposition from the state or maltreatment from others due to natural abilities she can't help, but also socially responsible enough to consider other people around her.

 

[Markonian]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

One's freedom ends where the rights of the another being begin.

Practically, I'd say that a single individual taking medication on occasion (when said person is around vulnerable people) to inhibit its abilities so as not to impair others unduly.

In the case of potent Orions, inhibiting the pheromones wouldn't mean shutting off pheromone production but decreasing it. Less potent Orions are biologically well even with limited pheromones.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Re: LE: One Constant Star by David R. George III Review Thread (Spoile

Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins.
-- Zechariah Chafee, in Harvard Law Review, frequently misattributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes