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Interesting research on Roddenberry

Of course you're right, but I think that confirms Harvey's argument. ;) The one and only female Starfleet officer in TOS portrayed with a rank higher than lieutenant never had her rank stated in dialogue.

I wouldn't make too much of that, it wasn't something the series emphasized. I'll bet you can count on one hand the number of times McCoy was referred to as lieutenant commander instead of "Doctor." Or Lieutenant Commander Scott instead of "Mister," for that matter.
 
What Harvey said wasn't an argument, it was a factual assertion: ""There was never a female guest star that played a character higher in rank than Lieutenant in Starfleet." You can't spin facts; they're either correct or incorrect. And as phrased, that sentence is factually incorrect.

That's an odd thing to call a "fact". We're confident of this because of her uniform braid?

When I was a kid in the 70s, the Star Fleet Manual was very specific about what the various stripes and dotted-lines meant. But that was ~8 or 9 years after the show aired. Question: were they as particular when the series aired? Is it possible they just threw her in a uniform, and weren't very careful about what the number of stripes meant? I'd be curious about earlier drafts of the script, whether there are any references to her rank.

To me, there are problems with either assertion about her rank. Her wardrobe argues against her being a "mere" lieutenant or lower, as you observed. But Kirk's bewildered "Who are you?" to her in the transporter room argues quite strongly against her being a lieutenant commander. I find it hard to imagine Kirk being unaware of anyone on board the same rank as Scotty & McCoy – much harder to imagine than the wardrobe dept screwing up the actor's braid.
 
What Harvey said wasn't an argument, it was a factual assertion: ""There was never a female guest star that played a character higher in rank than Lieutenant in Starfleet." You can't spin facts; they're either correct or incorrect. And as phrased, that sentence is factually incorrect.

That's an odd thing to call a "fact". We're confident of this because of her uniform braid?

When I was a kid in the 70s, the Star Fleet Manual was very specific about what the various stripes and dotted-lines meant. But that was ~8 or 9 years after the show aired. Question: were they as particular when the series aired? Is it possible they just threw her in a uniform, and weren't very careful about what the number of stripes meant? I'd be curious about earlier drafts of the script, whether there are any references to her rank.

To me, there are problems with either assertion about her rank. Her wardrobe argues against her being a "mere" lieutenant or lower, as you observed. But Kirk's bewildered "Who are you?" to her in the transporter room argues quite strongly against her being a lieutenant commander. I find it hard to imagine Kirk being unaware of anyone on board the same rank as Scotty & McCoy – much harder to imagine than the wardrobe dept screwing up the actor's braid.

Spock is referred to as a Lt. Commander in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".
 
What Harvey said wasn't an argument, it was a factual assertion: ""There was never a female guest star that played a character higher in rank than Lieutenant in Starfleet." You can't spin facts; they're either correct or incorrect. And as phrased, that sentence is factually incorrect. No reason to fight that; it's simply a matter of rephrasing the sentence for greater accuracy. For instance, "There was only one female guest star who ever played a character higher in rank than Lieutenant in Starfleet, Diana Muldaur in 'Return to Tomorrow;' but even she was addressed only as 'Doctor' and never by her rank."



I think this rank issue had more to do with the network and the sponsors than anything. I recently saw a clip from the 60's, where a famous white singer had a famous black singer on her show, and she was not allowed to even TOUCH him! The sponsors would not allow it! She tucked her hand into his arm, while singing a romantic song, and I thought she was going to lean in and KISS him, but it didn't happen. The Network and the sponsors were furious with her, but the show was already "in the can" and nothing could have stopped it. You have to realize that the networks and the sponsors were GODS of the airwaves back then. They controlled everything seen and heard with an iron fist, and nobody could oppose them. This started to fade out in the 70's, and today they have little say in productions, or values as seen like that.

The studio was already set to get Roddenberry out of the TREK production line, when they brought in Rick Berman to "help him out"! Berman was always a company man, and this is the primary reason why I dislike him so much, aside from the fact that he went out of his way to undo all of the "canon" of TOS Trek, like Zephran Cochran coming from Earth, and the way first contact went down! Pitiful!
 
Spock is referred to as a Lt. Commander in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

Kirk's bewildered "Who are you?" to Ann Mulhall in the transporter room argues quite strongly against her being a lieutenant commander. I find it hard to imagine Kirk being unaware of anyone on board the same rank as his executive officer, not to mention Scotty & McCoy – much harder to imagine than the wardrobe dept screwing up the actor's braid.
 
Spock is referred to as a Lt. Commander in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

Kirk's bewildered "Who are you?" to Ann Mulhall in the transporter room argues quite strongly against her being a lieutenant commander. I find it hard to imagine Kirk being unaware of anyone on board the same rank as his executive officer, not to mention Scotty & McCoy – much harder to imagine than the wardrobe dept screwing up the actor's braid.

I guess it would just come down to which thing you place more importance on: dialogue or props.

Is Valeris a Lieutenant or a Lieutenant Commander? :lol:
 
When I was a kid in the 70s, the Star Fleet Manual was very specific about what the various stripes and dotted-lines meant. But that was ~8 or 9 years after the show aired. Question: were they as particular when the series aired?

I think it's safe to say "no." If you go by what's onscreen, two stripers Spock, Finney and Giotto are all lieutenant commanders, just like Scotty and McCoy with a stripe-and-a-half.

ETA: The '70s Technical Manual wasn't right, either, IIRC they left out lieutenant JG and the commodore stripes weren't like the ones seen in the show.
 
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That's an odd thing to call a "fact". We're confident of this because of her uniform braid?

The braid is the only evidence we have, and there's nothing to refute it. If you're not convinced it's probative, then fine, it's easy enough to phrase the clarification in a way that acknowledges the uncertainty. E.g. "There was never a female guest star that definitively played a character higher in rank than Lieutenant in Starfleet; the one possible exception is Diana Muldaur's Dr. Anne Mulhall in 'Return to Tomorrow,' who wore lieutenant commander's stripes but was never addressed by rank." Although I see no reason to be so skeptical of the rank stripes. Just because something is an exception to the expected pattern doesn't mean it can't be true.


Is it possible they just threw her in a uniform, and weren't very careful about what the number of stripes meant?

That seems highly unlikely, for the very fact that we'd never seen a female lieutenant commander before, so they wouldn't have already had a suitable uniform lying around. If they'd just slapped on something that was already available, they would've put her in something with lieutenant's stripes or no stripes at all, because those were the only female uniform options they'd ever had before. So a female uniform with lieutenant commander's stripes is unique, something that would've had to be made specifically. I can't see how that could've been an accident.


To me, there are problems with either assertion about her rank. Her wardrobe argues against her being a "mere" lieutenant or lower, as you observed. But Kirk's bewildered "Who are you?" to her in the transporter room argues quite strongly against her being a lieutenant commander. I find it hard to imagine Kirk being unaware of anyone on board the same rank as Scotty & McCoy – much harder to imagine than the wardrobe dept screwing up the actor's braid.

He may not have known her by sight, but that doesn't mean he wasn't aware of her. After all, he hadn't summoned her to the transporter room; his "who are you?" could have simply meant that he wasn't expecting to see her there and didn't immediately place her by sight alone.

Not to mention, of course, that there had to be a way for her to be introduced to the audience. Exposition is often provided in contrived ways, and having the captain not remember a character's name is a way to provide it. Cf. Helen Noel and Marla McGivers. So I don't think the line had anything to do with the writers' intention regarding her rank, just with "How do we introduce this character to the audience while also establishing that Kirk didn't request her presence?"


EDIT: Oh, and one more thing: The James Blish adaptation of the episode does introduce her as "Lieutenant Commander Anne Mulhall." Although that adaptation was published in 1973 and thus probably written in 1972, late enough to be influenced by seeing reruns of the episode, so that doesn't necessarily confirm that it was in the script. It's suggestive, though.


Berman was always a company man, and this is the primary reason why I dislike him so much, aside from the fact that he went out of his way to undo all of the "canon" of TOS Trek, like Zephran Cochran coming from Earth...

Umm, there's a ton in "Metamorphosis" that makes it crystal-clear that Cochrane was an Earth human. McCoy explicitly says "He's human, Jim." Nancy/Companion later says "Now we are human." Cochrane is very intolerant of anything "inhuman" at first. Cochrane says the planetoid is "not Earth, but it's liveable," and the Companion made it duplicate Earth conditions for his benefit. Despite the "Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" line, it's obvious that Cochrane was of Earth human origin, and since he's the guy who invented interstellar drive, the clear implication is that he was meant to have been born on Earth and later moved to Alpha Centauri. Any fans who actually paid attention to the episode have known that for 47 years; the belief in some fan circles that Cochrane was from some native Alpha Centaurian species that happened to be identical to humans was always a silly, wrongheaded notion based on a misremembering of the actual dialogue in the episode.



I think it's safe to say "no." If you go by what's onscreen, two stripers Spock, Finney and Giotto are all lieutenant commanders, just like Scotty and McCoy with a stripe-and-a-half.

Spock was only referred to as a lieutenant commander a couple of times in the first season, and Finney and Giotto were from the first season as well. In seasons 2 and 3, Spock was consistently called a commander, matching his braid. The use of braids had become standardized (and Spock had been promoted, evidently) by season 2.


ETA: The '70s Technical Manual wasn't right, either, IIRC they left out lieutenant JG and the commodore stripes weren't like the ones seen in the show.

The lieutenant JG rank was never used in Star Trek prior to TNG.
 
The lieutenant JG rank was never used in Star Trek prior to TNG.

Then what was Tormolen in "The Naked Time"? If we're going with what everyone assumes the rank braids mean, he would have to be a Lt. JG.

 
Spock was only referred to as a lieutenant commander a couple of times in the first season, and Finney and Giotto were from the first season as well. In seasons 2 and 3, Spock was consistently called a commander, matching his braid. The use of braids had become standardized (and Spock had been promoted, evidently) by season 2.

Well, yeah. That's what I was saying, they weren't particular about the rank system.

The lieutenant JG rank was never used in Star Trek prior to TNG.

The corresponding braid was, as BillJ has noted. But it didn't appear in the FJ TM.
 
Well, yeah. That's what I was saying, they weren't particular about the rank system.

And what I'm saying is that that statement applies only to the first season. They took more care to keep the dialogue and the sleeve braids consistent in the second and third seasons. And the episode we're talking about is from the late second season.
 
Of course that article never said anything about what Susan Sackett was doing UNDER Gene's desk, or why Majel always called her "Susan SUCK IT". And it never even got close to the situation with Richard Arnold and Gene. NO, it would not look too good if Gene was shown to be BI!
 
Of course that article never said anything about what Susan Sackett was doing UNDER Gene's desk, or why Majel always called her "Susan SUCK IT". And it never even got close to the situation with Richard Arnold and Gene. NO, it would not look too good if Gene was shown to be BI!

What does that have to do with the discussion at hand? Who cares if Gene Roddenberry was bi-sexual or gay for that matter?
 
treknician said:
Of course that article never said anything about what Susan Sackett was doing UNDER Gene's desk, or why Majel always called her "Susan SUCK IT".

Oh for Christ's sakes...
 
Unsubstantiated innuendo has no place in an academic article that has been peer reviewed. Obviously.
 
EDIT: Oh, and one more thing: The James Blish adaptation of the episode does introduce her as "Lieutenant Commander Anne Mulhall." Although that adaptation was published in 1973 and thus probably written in 1972, late enough to be influenced by seeing reruns of the episode, so that doesn't necessarily confirm that it was in the script. It's suggestive, though.

The Blish thing I give more weight to than the costume, but it also suggests to me that at some point during shooting or in post that any reference to her being of higher rank was dropped, just because of the "who are you?" bit, which to me also seems an unlikely thing for Kirk to professs about a ranking officer (and a female one at that.)

I do have to admit I've never looked at her arms in the episode (there were other areas of interest), so it never occurred to me that she would be anything other than a stock lt, no matter how bright she was.
 
Wow! I can't believe how much the truth has been distorted.

I guess I was lucky enough to be alive at the time and experience the thing.

Roddenberry did go to conventions to promote the series. But then he had to, he sunk his last dime into Star Trek and had to promote it to make it work so he could earn a living. Not to mention, I'm sure the network would want him to make the rounds...they had put a percentage into it too.

Another thing, I saw Roddenberry at a number of conventions and was fortunate enough to meet him. Never did he ONCE ever try to elevate himself to the level of legend or visionary at those events.

WE, THE FANS, PUT HIM THERE.

Roddenberry was a shy man who never spoke above a whisper and always stopped to talk to fans and sign autographs. He would purposely walk through the halls to speak to us.

Was he a saint? No, no man is. But he does not deserve to flung through the mud like this, especially since he is dead and cannot defend himself.

There are plenty of people who are jealous of the man and the only way they can get even is to trash his name after he's dead. Because...well, I don't know that he would sue, but I know damn well that Majel would.
 
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