You're talking about Joachim or Joaquin? 
Augments SHOULD be accepted in Federation society...
- Thread starter dswynne1
- Start date
^ That would be Joachim, as (AFAIK) Joaquin did not appear in TWOK.
Say, does Bashir's parentage make him half-brothers with Raj from BBT?
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlNhD0oS5pk[/yt]
Somebody beat me to the reference, but not a single mention in Trek:Zeppelins?
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlNhD0oS5pk[/yt]
Something along those lines would have made a lot more sense than reviving a guy from the 20th century to help him design weapons....
Yet as soon as she was away from Khan's presence, she didn't immediately report to the Captain.
Masochists are people too.
That would ruin her chances with Khan. I think she endured the pain and humiliation for the hope of a coupling (which did happen eventually). I've seen that happen IRL
I'm not convinced he DIDN'T revive a different Augment, and that Augment just called himself 'Khan' (since Khan means king so is a title rather than a proper name).
Augments should be accepted by Fed society and permitted to join Starfleet. When you look at all the other nefarious/evil characters in the Trekverse; one concludes that being genetically augmented is not a precursor to violent behavior or ambition. We know that the Fed is ok with some forms of genetic altering. Chakotay had his DNA altered BEFORE birth, to ensure he wouldn't get a disease both his father and grandfather got. This was done by Fed doctors. So the Fed is willing to use genetic engineering, but the rules they set are pretty rigid.
Bashir receiving treatment to improve his brain function (hand-eye coordination, vision, reflexes, IQ) and stamina, doesn't really send up a whole lot of red flags. A person like Khan or the ENT augments who received enhanced 5x human strength, stamina, and intelligence; again doesn't send up any red flags in of it self. However combine the aforementioned skills with their own personal ambitions or notions they were raised to believe (the augments raised by Arik Soong), then you have a recipe for disaster.
However you don't need to be an augment to be a villain or possess "superior ambition.
Looking just at humans you have
Captain Tracey, Adm. Cartwright, Adm Leyton, Adm Pressman, Adm Doughtery, Adm Marcus, the rape gangs on Tasha's colony world, Terra Prime, etc etc
People will be evil and have sinister goals regardless of whether they are genetically altered or not.
Bashir receiving treatment to improve his brain function (hand-eye coordination, vision, reflexes, IQ) and stamina, doesn't really send up a whole lot of red flags. A person like Khan or the ENT augments who received enhanced 5x human strength, stamina, and intelligence; again doesn't send up any red flags in of it self. However combine the aforementioned skills with their own personal ambitions or notions they were raised to believe (the augments raised by Arik Soong), then you have a recipe for disaster.
However you don't need to be an augment to be a villain or possess "superior ambition.
Looking just at humans you have
Captain Tracey, Adm. Cartwright, Adm Leyton, Adm Pressman, Adm Doughtery, Adm Marcus, the rape gangs on Tasha's colony world, Terra Prime, etc etc
People will be evil and have sinister goals regardless of whether they are genetically altered or not.
The wimpy follower from WoK who had none of Khan's charisma and presence that we saw in SS, WoK and ID.
I'm pretty sure they were intended to be the same character, although that got lost somewhere along the way.
Of course, in order to qualify for Augmentation, I'm sure that the Feds would want to conduct a battery of psychological tests in order to root out the worst possible cases. Heck, the Trills have such a program involving the selection of host candidates. Heck, I'm surprised that Section 31 in the Prime Universe didn't have an Augmentation program during the Dominion War....
Being augmented isn't a precursor to being evil, but it does make you a lot better at being evil. In a way it's the same as the gun control debate. Having a machine gun doesn't make you a killer, it just makes you a lot better at it. It comes down to a conflict between the best interests of the collective and the rights of the individual.
But you know in real life any child who was augmented and wanted to do something the Federation didn't let them do would just go move to Ferenginar.
Yes. How much of this Federation viewpoint revolves back to the venerable trope of humans overstepping their bounds in trying to take over the divine role in attempting by forbidden means to improve humanity beyond its preordained limitations? All right, even in the Eugenics War era, talk of the divine and limiting evolutionary aspirations to ancient constructs wouldn't have the same cachet as it did even a century and a half or so previously.
But how different is the fear or existential dread of such possibilities unleashing untold horrors through unwitting error (lack of fully developed knowledge of the new), unintended consequence, or simply unchecked, overweening, naked ambition on the part of the creators of these brave new creatures from that posited, at least in part, in the tale that Shelley presented to the world?
After all, by and large the plots enumerated in this realm throughout Trek aren't focused on Augments or the like engineering further iterations of themselves, but rather, pretty much ourselves, whose frailities don't need to be hypothesized about, doing the construction. However far back one wants to look in our own history or mythology, the prospect of the exceptional outlier acting outside of conventional bounds to fashion their worldview according to their own dictates, has had the power to yes, perhaps invigorate thought, but also most certainly to terrify, whether it be Prometheus, Alexander, Galileo, Tesla, etc...
Magic Johnson announced that he had HIV at a time when it was still pretty much a death sentence. Maybe not as swift a death sentence as a the Ryan White era, but still a death sentence - and yet he never died - and never will (from HIV).
Angelina Jolie had a very expensive test performed on her that, to most, is simply cost prohibitive, that determined that the likelihood of her developing breast cancer was near certain - so she had a double mastectomy, followed by breast implants to ensure that it will not become an issue for her.
I think the real reason that augmentation was so frowned upon in the fiction that is Star Trek is because of the divide that it would inevitably create among those with access to it and those without. This is a divide far greater than the any other in the history of humanity.
In the Star Trek universe, I honestly don't see why it would be an issue because in a society where money has little to no meaning, access to cutting-edge technology would be pretty much equal. In such a society, genetic engineering on a massive scale would actually be prudent.
Still, writers of science fiction are telling their stories these days when this sort of utopia is nearly unimaginable but, for those who can afford it, the availability of genetic manipulation is very nearly here. Already there is very plainly two kinds of medicine - that which exists for the wealthy and that which is handed out to the poor. The disparity, is, to put it mildly, disheartening - and actually a bit scary.
Andy Warhol said that Coca Cola was the great equalizer - or something to that extent; meaning that most everyone drinks it and it tastes the same for each of us. I used to think... Nah... death is actually the great equalizer. But now I think in the years to come, we will find that this is only true in the strictest sense, because the rich will be living two lifetimes to the poor man's one. And that is only the beginning.
Genetic superiority is almost here, for those who are able to pay for it. Warp speed and replicators are light years away. This is why, I think, that particular science has been so vilified.
Angelina Jolie had a very expensive test performed on her that, to most, is simply cost prohibitive, that determined that the likelihood of her developing breast cancer was near certain - so she had a double mastectomy, followed by breast implants to ensure that it will not become an issue for her.
I think the real reason that augmentation was so frowned upon in the fiction that is Star Trek is because of the divide that it would inevitably create among those with access to it and those without. This is a divide far greater than the any other in the history of humanity.
In the Star Trek universe, I honestly don't see why it would be an issue because in a society where money has little to no meaning, access to cutting-edge technology would be pretty much equal. In such a society, genetic engineering on a massive scale would actually be prudent.
Still, writers of science fiction are telling their stories these days when this sort of utopia is nearly unimaginable but, for those who can afford it, the availability of genetic manipulation is very nearly here. Already there is very plainly two kinds of medicine - that which exists for the wealthy and that which is handed out to the poor. The disparity, is, to put it mildly, disheartening - and actually a bit scary.
Andy Warhol said that Coca Cola was the great equalizer - or something to that extent; meaning that most everyone drinks it and it tastes the same for each of us. I used to think... Nah... death is actually the great equalizer. But now I think in the years to come, we will find that this is only true in the strictest sense, because the rich will be living two lifetimes to the poor man's one. And that is only the beginning.
Genetic superiority is almost here, for those who are able to pay for it. Warp speed and replicators are light years away. This is why, I think, that particular science has been so vilified.
Well, certainly, you have various groups looking into creating a post-human world:
http://www.biops.co.uk/
The British Institute of Posthuman Studies thinks that by looking to cure aging ("Super Longevity"), enhance intellect ("Super Intelligence") and stabilize human emotions ("Super Well-being"), humanity could solve many ills within human society. Certainly, regardless of what you think, the discussion on "3 Supers" is thought-provoking.
http://www.biops.co.uk/
The British Institute of Posthuman Studies thinks that by looking to cure aging ("Super Longevity"), enhance intellect ("Super Intelligence") and stabilize human emotions ("Super Well-being"), humanity could solve many ills within human society. Certainly, regardless of what you think, the discussion on "3 Supers" is thought-provoking.
Since I will likely never get around to actually writing my fan fiction, I will go ahead and share a key idea from it here that bears directly on the thread topic, and I look forward to hearing what you think.
The human genome HAS been tinkered with in Star Trek. And not just theirs, either. Section 31, the Vulcan High Command, and later, Betazed have been altering genetics and doing other things to humanity and every other species they have come across to make them, yes, somewhat healthier, but also, more docile and able to live in the greater galactic community in peace. And it mostly works - the overwhelming majority of the species end up happy to live on their little utopian worlds, while an inevitable small percentage that still shows drive and ambition somehow just always happens to find their way to Starfleet, colonization programs, or certain other careers that the actual powers that be find manageable. Anyone that falls outside of their scheme is put in a penal colony and/or reprogrammed - or recruited into Section 31.
They adjust medical databases and training as they go so that the genetic changes they make are "how it has always been", and the heavy reliance on scanners and computer analysis helps to insure that this goes undetected even by medical professionals. The occasional professional that does notice something is fed some sort of excuse, reprogrammed not to notice, or criminalized. And genetic engineering - even relatively benign engineering - is "banned" as far as the general populace knows, to minimize the risk of competing adjustments or discovery of their own.
Sometimes it takes them a while to find the right combination of adjustments to genetics and society - the Klingons, for example, are still a work in progress. Sometimes they calculate that they will never manage to make suitable adjustments, and then the species must be eliminated - which explains in part the multiple attempts to completely annihilate the Founders. And occasionally, mistakes are made - the Pakleds, for instance, were an utterly vicious wolf-like species of pirates and scavengers with a society led by a few elite packs. An early attempt to use genetic adjustment to tone down their aggression and cruel intelligence resulted in the species we know today. (One of my envisioned opening sequences involved a Starfleet transport ship in 2180 or so being set upon by them and ruthlessly defeated and their cargo scavenged with no chance and no hope of rescue afterward, only revealing that their attackers were the Pack Led at the very end.)
All of this also explains why the TV hero crews sometimes seem a bit derpy. If you've ever found yourself yelling or wanting to yell at one of them on your TV about a solution to their problems that seems obvious even to your 20th/21st century mind, this is why - some of their ability to use their intelligence and focus has been paid as the price for their peaceful civilization.
And this applies to the Prime Timeline, of course. Assuming that what I've laid out here was taken as true, it would be interesting to see how changes progress in the NuVerse since Vulcan has been destroyed and Section 31 has been grievously injured.
What do you think?
The human genome HAS been tinkered with in Star Trek. And not just theirs, either. Section 31, the Vulcan High Command, and later, Betazed have been altering genetics and doing other things to humanity and every other species they have come across to make them, yes, somewhat healthier, but also, more docile and able to live in the greater galactic community in peace. And it mostly works - the overwhelming majority of the species end up happy to live on their little utopian worlds, while an inevitable small percentage that still shows drive and ambition somehow just always happens to find their way to Starfleet, colonization programs, or certain other careers that the actual powers that be find manageable. Anyone that falls outside of their scheme is put in a penal colony and/or reprogrammed - or recruited into Section 31.
They adjust medical databases and training as they go so that the genetic changes they make are "how it has always been", and the heavy reliance on scanners and computer analysis helps to insure that this goes undetected even by medical professionals. The occasional professional that does notice something is fed some sort of excuse, reprogrammed not to notice, or criminalized. And genetic engineering - even relatively benign engineering - is "banned" as far as the general populace knows, to minimize the risk of competing adjustments or discovery of their own.
Sometimes it takes them a while to find the right combination of adjustments to genetics and society - the Klingons, for example, are still a work in progress. Sometimes they calculate that they will never manage to make suitable adjustments, and then the species must be eliminated - which explains in part the multiple attempts to completely annihilate the Founders. And occasionally, mistakes are made - the Pakleds, for instance, were an utterly vicious wolf-like species of pirates and scavengers with a society led by a few elite packs. An early attempt to use genetic adjustment to tone down their aggression and cruel intelligence resulted in the species we know today. (One of my envisioned opening sequences involved a Starfleet transport ship in 2180 or so being set upon by them and ruthlessly defeated and their cargo scavenged with no chance and no hope of rescue afterward, only revealing that their attackers were the Pack Led at the very end.)
All of this also explains why the TV hero crews sometimes seem a bit derpy. If you've ever found yourself yelling or wanting to yell at one of them on your TV about a solution to their problems that seems obvious even to your 20th/21st century mind, this is why - some of their ability to use their intelligence and focus has been paid as the price for their peaceful civilization.
And this applies to the Prime Timeline, of course. Assuming that what I've laid out here was taken as true, it would be interesting to see how changes progress in the NuVerse since Vulcan has been destroyed and Section 31 has been grievously injured.
What do you think?
I freely admit that my knowledge of and viewing of a wide band of the Trek oeuvre is limited, likely more so than most members here. Does this current in your speculative thought on this crucial component of the Trekverse's constitution result mainly from surmises you have made from actual canon events, ones that given sufficient consideration, many people would likely concur with the extrapolations made? If so, without expending too much effort in doing so, would you cite some such events that have informed your constructions, specifically as regards the pacification or stifling of dissent amongst one's own race?
I have opened a dedicated thread to my fanfic ideas, if you are interested, here:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=9778858#post9778858
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