Well unless I'm confronted by a new scientific consensus that homosexuality is indeed unnatural and has no right to exist (which I don't believe will ever happen), I will continue to be confounded by the people in the world who believe so.
Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe
- Thread starter The Overlord
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I can't wait until they discover that there is a genetic basis for homophobia and come out with a pill that can cure it.
Unti then, we'll just have to keep 'Praying the gay bashing away'.
Maybe the answer is to start some kind of camp where homosexual teenagers can send their homophobic parents to cure them.
It is going to be an interesting debate when somebody discovers the exact physiological basis of attraction. Whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic, hormonal, whatever, it's only a matter of time before somebody figures out a way to manipulate it.
Hopefully by the time we get there our culture will have progressed to a point where we can just let people be in control of their own bodies and not judge their choices whatever choice they make.
Unti then, we'll just have to keep 'Praying the gay bashing away'.
Maybe the answer is to start some kind of camp where homosexual teenagers can send their homophobic parents to cure them.
It is going to be an interesting debate when somebody discovers the exact physiological basis of attraction. Whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic, hormonal, whatever, it's only a matter of time before somebody figures out a way to manipulate it.
Hopefully by the time we get there our culture will have progressed to a point where we can just let people be in control of their own bodies and not judge their choices whatever choice they make.
But how would you get those people to freely swallow it, with fore knowledge of it's effect?
I disagree with homophobia, but I would fight any attempt to force such a pill upon anyone.
You mean, 'Hate the hate, love the hater'? 
It's so hypothetical an issue, I can't too worked up over the moral issues of an anti hate pill. There is no research into this. Too many real issue to think about before I'd worry about the rights of the haters. The gov't would never make taking that a mandatory thing anyways.
Officially I'd be against forcing people to take that, their rights, blah blah...buy y'know, what about the rights of all the gay kids to grow up in a world free from homophobia? Whose rights are more important? Too many gay kids commit suicide, or are driven to self destructive behavior, or are bashed and murdered, all from homophobia? If some bigots had to take an anti homophobia pill, I'd sleep just fine.
But realistically, this isn't a thing. Unlike all the hokey studies that actually do try to "cure" homosexuality.
Officially I'd be against forcing people to take that, their rights, blah blah...buy y'know, what about the rights of all the gay kids to grow up in a world free from homophobia? Whose rights are more important? Too many gay kids commit suicide, or are driven to self destructive behavior, or are bashed and murdered, all from homophobia? If some bigots had to take an anti homophobia pill, I'd sleep just fine.
But realistically, this isn't a thing. Unlike all the hokey studies that actually do try to "cure" homosexuality.
Last I heard all of those guys were dead. However I understand your point that sometimes Spartans cried out not because an enemy was in front of them but because another Spartan was behind. As for the Klingons, as I interpret their culture as presented throughout the series the policy would be at best "Don't Ask Don't Tell" for the very reason you cite.
They do not excel because they are gay, they excel because they are good soldiers.
If there is a genetic basis for homophobia then there would also be a genetic basis for being gay. Protein chemist are already working on various "pills" which would contain pre-programmed viruses coded to penetrate damaged or compromised cells and correct said damage or imperfections. I don't see how anyone could support forcing pills on one segment of the population who may voice an opinion they don't like but rail against any suggestion another segment of the population be treated likewise.
Why attack Christianity? Because I seriously doubt you are targeting those of faiths whom routinely put gays to death.
Perhaps in Russia or Iran that might work, but here people have the right to disagree with each other, an organization promoting a political agenda, or the government itself without fear of being shipped off to a re-education camp.
Of course you could be joking, but as that excuse didn't work for Gary Oldman...
Agreed. What then?
Tell that to the current First Lady. And the progressives in general.
Some (if not most) prejudice against gays is a derivative of sexism. That's where all that "girlie man" stuff comes from. Male homosexuals appear more feminine, are considered weaker, are associated with "typical" female activities, like shopping, ballet dancing, hair dressing, fashion design, etc... Gay men are supposed to be a woman's best friend (next to diamonds, I suppose). That's all sexist bullshit. So in a society without sexism, gays would be more accepted.
Not at all, it's a case of you don't get to force a pill down someone throat solely because you possess a opposing philosophical, societal or political position than they do.You mean, 'Hate the hate, love the hater'?
How far are you willing to go to obtain a society that conforms to your own ideas of "acceptable."
Perhaps it can be right next to the camp for the Jews?
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Since same-sex relations haven't been looked at in Trek, there's nothing to say that races such as the Klingons or Cardassians don't consider it acceptable, normal or even expected under certain circumstances--for all we know the reason behind Dukat and Garak's hostility is that of scorned lovers 
Thank you Bry, for bringing the discussion back to Trek.Since same-sex relations haven't been looked at in Trek, there's nothing to say that races such as the Klingons or Cardassians don't consider it acceptable, normal or even expected under certain circumstances--for all we know the reason behind Dukat and Garak's hostility is that of scorned lovers
As long as the thread remains Trek-centric, it will remain open. A more general discussion of homosexual rights may be had in the Miscellaneous forum or The Neutral Zone.
When people generally have described homosexuality as abnormal, it has one of a few specific connotations: either biologically unfounded, psychologically aberrant and degenerate, or outrightly anti-religious. You're right that in the Cardassian and Klingon cases, there is room for homosexual relationships as long as one's family or house is in order (in the broad Ancient Greek sense). However, I don't think that those are the only values that might affect sexual orientation and relationships.
The two cases that I think might produce contradictory results are the Ferengi and Vulcan. Both might tolerate homosexuality, but other values might discourage it. Quark and other Ferengi have generally treated relationships, sexual as well as purely reproductive, as acquisitions. Moreover, Ferengi have a skewed understanding of gender, which is reflected in the unequal relationship of marriage. How far can a same-sex relationship go if a it must be formalized contractually at some point? Ferengi might not regard such relationships as aberrant, but not being good business might have take a toll.
Conversely, what happens when a species is either indifferent to or actively seeks to repress its basic drives? Vulcan relationships are so ritualized and formalized that I think it's fair to wonder whether there is room for recreative sexuality of any type, hetero- or homosexual. The fact that two children are psychically bonded before they (probably) can express themselves with sexual maturity is extraordinarily problematic. From T'Pol, I get the sense that most Vulcans see relationships as a formality that they all go through without really questioning things. I guess two boys or two girls could be bonded at an early age, but we would be left with the same questions Trip made about heterosexual marriage: how can an individual want the relationship that has been arranged for them? I guess what I am saying is that it may not matter whether Vulcans tolerate homosexual relationships (or if they are common) is there isn't much room for free will and self-expression in any relationship.
In T'pol's case, she wasn't bond until she was about 50 years, so child bonding does occure, may be the norm, but it isn't universal.
Somehow Stonn was availible for T'Pring.
Even today not all Human marriages are seen as primarily romantic.
Even today not all Human marriages are seen as primarily romantic.
Without a doubt!
The Ferengi are the biggest horn-dogs in the galaxy (after Kirk that is), eyeing females as little more than property with brides being essentially bought from their fathers--of course that is going to skew their perception on relations with the opposite sex. There is a Rule of Acquisition (I forget which number) that says it never hurts to suck up to the boss, one way to accomplish that would be to offer sexual favours. As for a formalised contractual same-sex relationship, wouldn't it be the same way as hiring an escort/gigolo/prostitute--you pay money for expected physical gratification (the Ferengi would just have more paperwork
).Given Vulcans Victorian-esque view of sex of all kinds, then intercourse between those of the same sex is probably discussed about as often as they are the opposite sex, which is rarely in public or private. Those that are attracted to the same sex would undergo pon farr, take a partner and "purge" their urge (pon farr may be a mating drive, but it clearly doesn't need to result in conception during every cycle). Thanks to T'Pol we also know that Vulcans are capable of (and sometimes seek out) sex outwith pon farr so those of any orientation could 'enjoy' it whenever they wanted, if it was logical of course
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Hmmm, Spock had a great deal of difficulty discussing sexually matters with his male best friend in Amok Time, but later (Cloud Minders) had no problems discussing the same matters with a woman that he found attractive.
But if pon farr is primarily a "mating/reproductive drive" then a gay Vulcan (male of female) might have their sexual orientation "over-ridden" for the duration pon farr with the psychological compulsion to mate with a member of the opposite gender.
Would T'Pol (or any Vulcan female) be capable of conceiving outside of pon farr?
Hmm, that's an interesting question, if Vulcan women only can concieve during Pon Farr. I don't think we know enough to say for sure. In New Frontier, Selar concieved during Pon Farr, and there were scrapped plans for Saavik to concieve in STIII.
New Frontier had a small supporting character of Selar's gay brother who was said not to go thru Pon Farr. Vanguard has a lesbian Vulcan T'Prynn who did go thru Pon Farr.
From that we could assume that homosexual female Vulcans go thru Pon Farr, but males don't.
New Frontier had a small supporting character of Selar's gay brother who was said not to go thru Pon Farr. Vanguard has a lesbian Vulcan T'Prynn who did go thru Pon Farr.
From that we could assume that homosexual female Vulcans go thru Pon Farr, but males don't.
I look at pon farr like the mating cycle of pandas, in that it is the brief time every 7 years in which they are fertile and capable of conceiving a child. Since it's a neurological condition that affects all Vulcans regardless of orientation, then those undergoing it would all be looking to get their rocks off with their preferred sex.
That's the character who served as her own champion in kalle-fee?
It's not impossible that she did, although after three months (and given Robin Curtis' figure) there should have been an obvious "baby bump," however Vulcans might experience a protracted gestation cycle.
Many fans assume that Spock's eventual marriage some fifty years later was to Saavik.
How old was he, might it have been a case of he simply had experienced pon farr yet? Spock had his first pon farr in his mid-thirties, T'Pol would have been over fifty, so there might be a wide varible as to when you get your "first one."
Possible. Modern day understanding as to what "makes you gay" has to do with your brain's architecture. Just as heteros of both genders have different brain structures from each other, gays are different still. So the portion of the Vulcan brain that results in pon farr might be non-functional, incomplete, or simply missing in the brains of gay males.
The window of opportunity might be more than the small number of days that Human females have monthly, Vulcan's reproductive systems could be "switched on" for a few months with each pon farr.
With discussion on this subject, I keep returning to something Spock said ...
"we are driven by forces we cannot control to return home and take a wife."
That to me says that pon farr isn't solely about engaging in sex. The first pon farr could include the component of a compulsion to establish a household and a family unit. Not just engage in sex. This would make sense, especially in primitive times, it would increase the survival rate for children.
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