Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

[Christopher]

....except for the very awkward essay by Kirk in one of the movie novelizations where he addresses the Spock rumor - which as a kid was the first time I'd encountered the idea of same sex relationships treated with something like equality.

Really? Which novelization was that? I don't remember and I haven't read any of the TOS Movie era novelizations in awhile...

It's a footnote from Roddenberry's ST:TMP novelization, which was presented with the conceit of being a dramatization of actual events with an introduction and occasional commentary by Admiral Kirk. The footnote is from p. 22 of the scene where Spock is about to accept the Kolinahr medallion and renounce his former life forever, and thinks a farewell to Kirk, his t'hy'la The footnote reads:

Editor's note: The human concept of friend is most nearly duplicated in Vulcan thought by the term t'hy'la, which can also mean brother and lover. Spock's recollection (from which this chapter has drawn) is that it was a most difficult moment for him since he did indeed consider Kirk to have become his brother. However, because t'hy'la can be used to mean lover, and since Kirk's and Spock's friendship was unusually close, this has led to some speculation over whether they had actually indeed become lovers. At our request, Admiral Kirk supplied the following comment on this subject:

"I was never aware of this lovers rumor, although I have been told that Spock encountered it several times. Apparently he had always dismissed it with his characteristic lifting of his right eyebrow which usually connoted some combination of surprise, disbelief, and/or annoyance. As for myself, although I have no moral or other objections to physical love in any of its many Earthly, alien, and mixed forms, I have always found my best gratification in that creature woman. Also, I would dislike being thought of as so foolish that I would select a love partner who came into sexual heat only once every seven years."

(Gee, I wonder how Dr. Chapel felt when she read that last sentence...)

I agree, that was a pretty significant statement at the time, Kirk expressing the attitude that there was nothing wrong with alternative sexualities, even if he personally wasn't into them. Although it's interesting to note that he says women provide his best gratification, not his only gratification.

 

[ClayinCA]

Those are some good examples - but all those shows are over with now, except for Who, and it's unknown if or when Jenny and Vastra will return.

They're going to be in the forthcoming series 8 premiere of Doctor Who, appearing opposite Peter Capaldi's new Doctor.

 

[borgboy]

Those are some good examples - but all those shows are over with now, except for Who, and it's unknown if or when Jenny and Vastra will return.

They're going to be in the forthcoming series 8 premiere of Doctor Who, appearing opposite Peter Capaldi's new Doctor.

That's great! I love Vastra and Jenny. Any word on an appearance from River Song?
And thanks Christopher for the quote. On reflection, Roddenberry does seem to be having it both ways there, having Kirk deny being Spock's lover but deliberately using a made up alien word to describe their relationship that can mean lover - I interpret it to mean that Kirk and Spock are lovers and life partners in pretty much all ways except sexually. Very sly of Roddenberry for Kirk to say women are his best gratification, not his only. That can pretty easily be interpreted as Kirk being bisexual. A direct interpretation of the text makes it unlikely to read Kirk as strictly heterosexual - although I could also interpret this as Kirk experimenting with aliens who weren't exactly male or female by our standards.

 

[trampledamage]

Since this has moved on to a wider discussion, I'm going to leave the thread open and here - I have edited the original post to spoiler the story idea (and my apologies for not doing it sooner, the weekend got away from me).

 

[Ronald Held]

I never thought Reed was gay. Any subtle hints in that direction I thought was part of his English upbringing.

 

[CaffeineAddict]

I never thought Reed was gay. Any subtle hints in that direction I thought was part of his English upbringing.

Err...what?

 

[Paris]

I never thought Reed was gay. Any subtle hints in that direction I thought was part of his English upbringing.

Err...what?

I think Ronald Held is implying that all English men seem gay to him...or that all gay men seem English. Not sure which

 

[Deranged Nasat]

More likely he means that any evasive or discomforted behaviour that might be read as a - forgive the phrase - "closeted" sexuality struck him simply as a stereotypical British reserve and emotional restraint. If Reed comes across as uncomfortable with his feelings or their expression around another person, it's not because he's juggling any sexual interest in them, he's just uncomfortable with emotional transparency in general.

 

[Corran Horn]

Except now that I've read a thread where it was proposed, I can't do it. This is why we have rules against posting story ideas in this forum.

So all we have to do to ensure something doesn't happen in the novels is shotgun it into an unrelated thread you've posted in?

That seems absurd.

 

[Christopher]

^Yes, it is absurd, but it's an unfortunate fact of life. There are people out there who file nuisance plagiarism lawsuits that, absurd though they are, nonetheless cost publishers and creators a lot of money to fight, so we just can't afford to take any chances.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

More likely he means that any evasive or discomforted behaviour that might be read as a - forgive the phrase - "closeted" sexuality struck him simply as a stereotypical British reserve and emotional restraint. If Reed comes across as uncomfortable with his feelings or their expression around another person, it's not because he's juggling any sexual interest in them, he's just uncomfortable with emotional transparency in general.

That's how I view the situation as well.

Reed is obviously not very emotional in any sense. (Quite commendable, really.) And as for that thing with Hayes: maybe Reed just doesn't like the guy? Not every fight has to have a hidden meaning.

 

[borgboy]

There are many people who were (And are) very invested in seeing gay characters on a Star Trek show. When there was no representation, I think it's only natural that people look for hidden meaning. There's a long tradition of coded homosexuality in books, movies and television, and Reed's "relationship" with Hayes had a lot of chemistry, more so than any of his tepid heterosexual pairings.
Give us fair LGBT representation and maybe we won't look so hard to interpret the hetero characters as gay. I think it's interesting that people can bring their own different interpretations to the show.

 

[Jarvisimo]

Christopher, I don't understand how the thread on 'the next captain of the enterprise' doesn't compromise you or another authors' potential story plans in the same way as this thread? If you or someone who uses this forum did use one of the suggestions or story ideas in that thread, wouldn't that be a similar situation? Yet, it's ok? Sorry for not understanding, but I it seems that the 'story idea' thing is not clear as to what it exactly is.

 

[Christopher]

Christopher, I don't understand how the thread on 'the next captain of the enterprise' doesn't compromise you or another authors' potential story plans in the same way as this thread?

For one thing, because I'm not currently writing TNG novels. I am, however, the one in charge of chronicling Malcolm Reed's life for at least the next couple of years.

Also, I suppose it's more general. A list of multiple suggestions of possible new series leads isn't quite as specific as suggesting a particular change or revelation in an individual's personal life.

 

[Echtzeit]

Christopher, I don't understand how the thread on 'the next captain of the enterprise' doesn't compromise you or another authors' potential story plans in the same way as this thread? If you or someone who uses this forum did use one of the suggestions or story ideas in that thread, wouldn't that be a similar situation? Yet, it's ok? Sorry for not understanding, but I it seems that the 'story idea' thing is not clear as to what it exactly is.

Don't bother, it's fine. I'm going to be out of the forums here, anyway, in... well, now.

 

[Ronald Held]

More likely he means that any evasive or discomforted behaviour that might be read as a - forgive the phrase - "closeted" sexuality struck him simply as a stereotypical British reserve and emotional restraint. If Reed comes across as uncomfortable with his feelings or their expression around another person, it's not because he's juggling any sexual interest in them, he's just uncomfortable with emotional transparency in general.

I think that is what I was getting at, British reserve.

 

[Jarvisimo]

Christopher, I don't understand how the thread on 'the next captain of the enterprise' doesn't compromise you or another authors' potential story plans in the same way as this thread? If you or someone who uses this forum did use one of the suggestions or story ideas in that thread, wouldn't that be a similar situation? Yet, it's ok? Sorry for not understanding, but I it seems that the 'story idea' thing is not clear as to what it exactly is.

Don't bother, it's fine. I'm going to be out of the forums here, anyway, in... well, now.

Don't go - I think we have all done this once or twice and been swatted. You have encouraged a fun and interesting discussion, and your contribution has been good!

Christopher, I don't understand how the thread on 'the next captain of the enterprise' doesn't compromise you or another authors' potential story plans in the same way as this thread?

For one thing, because I'm not currently writing TNG novels. I am, however, the one in charge of chronicling Malcolm Reed's life for at least the next couple of years.

Also, I suppose it's more general. A list of multiple suggestions of possible new series leads isn't quite as specific as suggesting a particular change or revelation in an individual's personal life.

Ok, I think I get what you are saying, but it is very subjective also. This clearly wasn't fan-fiction or anything like that, it fits into the category of speculation. It seems problematic that there isn't a place for discussion about such things in the environment designed for the books, and that the definition of 'story idea', or rather 'speculation', can be so nebulous. Surely some of the special speculation proposed by Deranged Nasat, which can be rather specific in nature, could be problematic? Yet it isn't, and it's fruitful for the wider community. Perhaps much like the captains thread ongoing. Maybe more definition will be helpful as to what constitutes a story idea or speculation - more than what is in the 'Don't post' thread/warning currently that "we cannot have story ideas/speculation posted in this forum". Whilst the situation as it stands works, it can also be confusing - and ultimately we want a place where people feel welcome and where you and other authors are able to participate.

Trampledamage & other admins, perhaps there could be a subforum of this forum dedicated to speculation from the novels?

 

[Christopher]

I think what made the initial post feel too much like a story idea to me was that it made some specific suggestions about what would motivate Malcolm or whom he might get involved with. It's that kind of suggestion about specific events or choices, the point where it starts to become a narrative rather than just discussion or general speculation, that you have to watch out for. It's not any suggestion that does it; writers draw on ideas from other people all the time. So speculation about the cultures of alien species, say, would generally be okay. That's just setting the stage. But when it's a plotline, a description of a specific event or situation or transformative experience affecting the characters, that's when it crosses into story idea territory.

I should make it clear, though, that I didn't actually have any plans to have Malcolm come out. As we've discussed, the show gave him a pretty clear interest in women.

 

[Jarvisimo]

^^ Merci pour la précision Maybe what you say here, as it's good in its specificity, should be added to the 'no story ideas' post by Trampledamage?

I still think a subforum concerned with speculation specific to treklit is perhaps a nice idea?

 

[revolution22]

did you notice that in one constant star that not only is demora sulu bisexual, but was willing to participate in three-ways before she made captain?