One Year Later: Star Trek Into Darkness

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by HaplessCrewman, May 29, 2014.

  1. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The movie has obvious pot holes all of which I had expected after watching the 2009 film. I do think you have to switch off your brain for this.

    I went to see it 3 times. I don't usually do repeat viewings of any film at the cinema. Loved it each time. A well made and highly entertaining movie.
     
  2. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

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    :techman::techman::techman::beer:

    Well done.
     
  3. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We know that Khan knew his people were in the torpedoes and how many of them there were, and that he'd assumed Marcus had killed them. Otherwise, pretty much none of the information as to why any of this rest of it is happening or what anyone's motivations are at any point is actually in the film. So it doesn't surprise me that people get confused.

    (Especially given that most of the scenarios that would fit -- including the one you come up with, which strikes me as pretty reasonable -- are kind of absurd unless Marcus and Khan are both sitcom-worthy buffoons, rather than the formidable adversaries they're portrayed as being.)

    Your rendition of the sequence of events supports Singer's view, frankly. Moreover Singer is talking about dramatic impact as well as plausibility, the rapid yo-yo-ing of Kirk's command rank didn't strike me as having much of either.

    So what? Really? So that robs the moment of drama, especially when it's deliberately put in frame with another movie that had the guts to leave the character dead at the end. I don't see what's unclear about that.

    Oh do tell.

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, movies getting overpraised is not exactly an impossible thing that never happens. Just ask yourself a couple of things. Would you be hitching your cart to this rhetorical horse for anything other than a Trek movie? Would you be taking it as personally for anything else?

    I mean, Singer's guessing about trends on relatively little concrete evidence, but all that does is make his arguments speculative, not automatically "inane" or "ego-involved."

    I don't think the reason Singer gives for that final moment falling flat (for some of us) is the best one.
     
  4. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    Yesterday I hung out with my cousin and as usual we love talking about movies. We actually saw STID in IMAX 3D together (as we've watched Trek in theaters together since the 90s), and he really liked that and at that time thought it might have been the best of the films he had seen. He's more of a casual viewer than a fan. Having been on Netflix, he revisited it and thought it didn't hold up well, for reasons that nobody here hasn't heard like the yo-yoing of Kirk's rank, his death/resurrection, the whole business with the torpedoes and such. And of course, the "not as good as the first", which I hear the most often and is the one criticism I actually disagree with, but I can understand why many feel that way.

    I thought I'd bring this up here because since it's relevant to this topic, and it's coming from someone who isn't a big fan like all of us here whereas fans tend to either be cheerleaders for the film or quite the opposite like booers. Makes one wonder how many casual viewers feel about the flick today. Tamatometers wouldn't be helpful in this case since a bulk of the votes were done on the time of release and many might not even bother to go back on the site and change it if their opinion of the film changed (this is one of the reasons I don't think such sites can be helpful beyond the time of release).
     
  5. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yet in-universe he's been mentioned in the same breath as Hitler, for some reason.
     
  6. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    What about Khan's actions makes him a sitcom-worthy buffoon, exactly?

    As for Marcus, the movie never seems to characterize him as a particularly cunning adversary. He fails to realize that Khan might take advantage of Starfleet protocol after the London attack, and criminally underestimates Kirk (as evidenced b the "Aw, shit" scene) and his crew.
     
  7. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    They are also the most overtly "black." As a Klin--er, black man myself, I could not help but feel a little uncomfortable.

    Still liked the movie, though.

    (Cue "post-racist" shit-storm in 5, 4, 3, 2...)
     
  8. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd look at Franklin's scenario of what goes on between Khan and Marcus, starting with: "Khan put his people in the torpedoes,"" and ending with: "[Marcus] takes advantage of Kirk's willingness to go after Khan to get rid of the torpedoes more or less in plain sight." It's as reasonable a scenario as anyone could come up wiht... but for my money, it doesn't look like a game of chess between two grandmasters, or even one with any grandmasters involved at all.

    A survey of all the many ways the Klingons have been racially, erm, awkward over the span of Trek would actually be pretty interesting.

    I do nevertheless agree with Dennis that their design being genuinely intimidating was pretty cool to see. I was more disappointed that they didn't get much to do other than get shot up by Khan.
     
  9. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Again, I'll agree that Marcus isn't a grand master. I don't think the movie characterizes him as such, and I certainly wouldn't argue as such.

    I'm still not sure, however, how Khan's actions in the movie represent "sitcom-worthy buffoonery."

    Is it Khan's strategy to smuggle his crew out using the torpedoes you find silly?

    Is it Khan's assumption that Marcus -- ruthless enough to sacrifice the entire crew of the Enterprise, his own people -- killed Khan's crew when he discovered Khan's ruse?
     
  10. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    There's a pretty well-written academic study by Daniel Bernardi that talks about this issue, among others, although since it came out in 1998 (and is a revision of Bernardi's 1995 PhD thesis) there's quite a bit of Trek that he doesn't cover.
     
  11. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ That looks fascinating Harvey, thanks for the link.
     
  12. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    On the same subject, there's also this book by Micheal Pounds, but I wouldn't strongly recommend it. Pounds' contention that Number One was originally written as black (the end note supporting this claim leads only to The Making of Star Trek) is one of several head-scratchers. Bernardi has more credibility -- even though I don't give every argument he makes equal weight.

    If you do read Bernardi, and want to start a thread, I'm game. I'll just need some time to re-read!
     
  13. Beyerstein

    Beyerstein Captain Captain

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    I think the first Abrams movie is still fun and holds up pretty well.

    The second one is weird and I can't watch it without being reminded of Bob Orci's 9/11 truther and conspiracy theorist beliefs.
     
  14. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Funny how when Khan brags about how he cares so freaking much for his crew that he'll shed a tear over the prospect of losing them, he won't lift a finger to find out if his assumptions are correct. Saying that he "logically assumed" still makes this an assumption, which is defined as...

    suppose to be the case, without proof.​

    This intelligent "I am better!" superman goes on a killing spree based on assumptions. Really? When he had that one Section 31 guy infiltrate their secret underground London base, he didn't tell him to just check the records and see what was done with those torpedoes or it's contents? What if the torpedoes along with his crew were inside the base when he blew it up? Khan is more of a danger to his own people than anyone else in this movie.
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    It's easy for writers who don't watch Star Trek to make those conclusions when the biggest thing associated with Khan was when he was a revenge seeking madman who was responsible for Spock's death and the almost destruction of the Enterprise. Remember this exchange in the Deep Space Nine episode "Doctor Bashir, I Presume"?

    Admiral Bennett: Two hundred years ago, we tried to improve the species through DNA resequencing. And what did we get for our troubles? The Eugenics Wars. For every Julian Bashir that can be created, there's a Khan Singh waiting in the wings.

    Recognize the problem? You should. Deep Space Nine takes place about 400 years after the Eugenics Wars. But did Ron Moore use Space Seed as a reference where Khan was identified as the least violent tyrant of all the supermen? No.

    "This is my personal screw-up. When I was writing that speech, I was thinking about Khan and somehow his dialog from "Wrath" started floating through my brain: "On Earth... 200 years ago... I was a Prince..." The number 200 just stuck in my head and I put it in the script without making the necessary adjustment for the fact that "Wrath" took place almost a hundred years prior to "Dr. Bashir." I wrote it, I get the blame."​

    But Joe Menosky's comment is my favorite because he says something that a lot of users here keep using in order to justify Khan being a genocidal murderer.

    "I heard they were going to point blank, have a statement that said the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 21st century. That was the rumor that was floating through the building. I think that people would have hit the roof if they would have done that, so maybe they just decided to leave it up in nebulous hyperspace. The point is, if they would have gone that route, then you would have had to come up with some theory about how history got screwed up. The records got destroyed, or something messed up the original dates."​

    Clearly coming up with the idea that records were destroyed or messed up is a really far fetched idea when it comes to the Eugenics Wars... DID THESE PEOPLE EVER WATCH SPACE SEED?!?!
     
  16. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Interesting.

    The problem with using Khan in a 2013 movie is the time of the Eugenics Wars has passed in the real universe, and I don't think Trek has ever altered or made anything up in real Earth history that came before a Trek story aired. Changing the Eugenics Wars to the 21st century, maybe retconning them to coincide with the time of the Third World War as mentioned in TNG, would've made some sense, but probably would've also caused a lot of fans to hit the roof.

    But the out is here is easy. Khan's history is the same in both universes, but as I said before, impressions of who Khan was or what he really did can be very different in both universes. Given that Section 31 found Khan, there could've been more intensive research into this period than was done in the Prime Universe. Could be Khan was indeed a far more vicious person than he portrayed himself to be as in "Space Seed", or was understood to be by 23rd century Prime Universe history. Bear in mind that in SS, when he starts to lose is patience with the crew, he did get frustrated and resorted to threatening to basically execute them all. He didn't seem to have any moral qualms doing it.
     
  17. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

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    About the torpedoes: If your problem is Khan had no way of knowing if his people were still in the torpedoes on the Enterprise, point taken. However, as far as his motivations go, after his encounter with the Enterprise (starting with Sulu's threat) they are driven by the belief that they still are, and that's enough to move the story. Is that logical? Does it mean Khan is greatly discounting other actions Marcus may have been just as likely to take? Maybe. What could've been said on screen that would've made all this with the missiles more clear?

    About Kirk's rise and fall in rank: Kirk has been captain of he Enterprise for a year. He hasn't really matured, and probably still sees the Enterprise as his new hot rod to go from adventure to adventure. He may love it, but he's not wed to it, yet. His life isn't defined by it, yet. So, the poignancy of losing his command isn't as sharp as it would be if this had been later in his career. However, if audience drama can be better served by Kirk roaming the halls weeping, he will gladly defer to Singer's expertise. ;)

    About the reviews: Yes, Singer is guessing about trends based on little or no evidence (the "small n" problem). Speculation with very little to back it up is a guess, or just a poorly informed opinion. I'd be interested to hear more evidence to back up his argument that the movie hasn't aged well (at one year old!). Especially when it's contrasted with 215 positive reviews out of 247 of varying depth and quality, and varying degrees of like for the movie that also include legitimate beefs with it. That it's not considered so good now would be a stunning thing to show. Responding to that by calling the movie "overpraised" is also odd an interpretation that seems based on personally not liking it, therefore rationalizing the "gushing" of praise for it as exaggerating its quality. As far as me taking it personally goes. Meh. I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  18. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Which I acknowledge. He's obviously not above killing in order to get what he wants. Heck, when it looked like all was lost, he was willing to destroy the whole ship rather than be prisoners to these "inferior" humans. But taken all of his actions into account, he didn't kill any of the crew when taking over the ship, and when he threatened to kill Kirk in the pressure chamber he sweetened the deal from Spock joining him to ANYONE joining him to spare Kirk's life. He was not out to just kill people. This new Khan is.

    Spock Prime doesn't even bother mentioning that the original Kirk and crew defeated Khan before with no casualties, and that the two men came to an understanding with each other before Khan was shipped off to Ceti Alpha 5. But no, he only mentions the events of "The Wrath of Khan", and not even that information was accurate.
     
  19. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

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    True. The thing is, the general audience hasn't seen "Space Seed", so their familiarity with Khan is the crazed man in TWOK.

    I discount what Spock Prime said a bit because I wonder how much real information he really wanted to impart. Did he tell a lie? No. A calculated generalization? Could be. If Spock has resorted to contacting Spock Prime about Khan, Spock Prime must assume the situation is critical and time is not on Spock's side. (Let's assume this is also the first time Spock ever contacted Spock Prime about a situation, which, knowing himself, would probably alarm Spock Prime.) Spock Prime would obviously give him some useful information, but there isn't time for much detail (and maybe Spock Prime doesn't want to go into it). Again, not a lie. Exaggeration.

    Bear in mind Spock Prime never connected Khan to genocide, either (not on screen, anyway). Could be Spock Prime went to the library computer for more information after talking to Spock Prime and found that out for himself. That's why I said it's possible this universe has new or clearer information about Khan, or perhaps it's even misinformation planted in the history by Section 31 to demonize Harrison if his cover is ever blown.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  20. Noname Given

    Noname Given Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Most egocentric megalomaniacs are. And that's Kahn. Remember, he gets people to follow him, but has ZERO qualms about using them (in whatever way needed) to further his own goals, or ensure his personal survival. <--- That's WHY the character is so dangerous.